When I was going over my notes I had taken when I was learning Bava Metzia page 102-B with David Bronson I apparently had forgotten or did not understand what he was saying about Bava Metzia page 102B פרושי קא מפרש in Tosphot. However it just occurred to me what probably was bothering David.
I think it was this. Tosphot asks a question on Rashi from Bava Batra page 165B from the Mishna that says if in a document it says So and so borrowed 100 zuzim which are 20 selaim. (Normally 100 zuz are 25 sela.)The lender gets only 20 selaim. Tosphot answer for Rashi that the words in the document are far apart. What probably bothered David and which bothers me now is that there does not seem to be any difference between the case in Bava Batra page 165 and the cases of אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי nor the case of "I will rent to you this bathhouse for a year for 12 gold coins which is one gold coin per month." So the question of Tosphot seems to apply just as much to the explanation of Tosphot as it does to Rashi and the answer he gives for Rashi does not seem very justified. After all the words "100 zuz" do not seem very far from "20 selaim". The only word that separates them is דאינון "which are" which should serve to connect the words rather than separate them.
The basic sugia as it is brought in Bava Batra page 105 is this. There is a Mishna [Baba Metzia 102a] that says One person says to another I will rent to you this bathhouse for a year for 12 gold coins which are 1 per month. Rav said he would give the whole 13th month to the owner. They ask on this: "Why did Rav need to say this again? He already had said אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי?" That means תפוס לשון אחרון. We go by the last words. The Gemara answers "we might have said פרושי מפרש"
There are three explanations. The Rashbam and the Ri who both say פרושי מפרש would go on the bathhouse. But they differ in this.The Rashba says If Rav had only stated the case of bathhouse we might have thought the owner meant 12 per year but if it is a leap year then one gold coin per month. The Ri explains if Rav had only stated the case of אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי (which we would know means תפוס לשון אחרון)then when we would come to a case of a bathhouse we would say the owner meant to explain that he meant the rent ought to be paid at the end of every month. Not the end of the year. But that still the whole overall price would be 12 gold coins.
Rashi says פרושי מפרש goes on אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי and that it means a אסתרא גרועה a low value אסתרא. But that would not imply in general to go by לשון אחרון.
The question on Rashi come from Bava Batra page 165. 100 zuz that are 20 selaim where the law is he gets the least amount.20 selaim. Also if the document said 100 zuz which are 30 sela he gets only 100 zuz. This seems to be a question on everyone. Not just on Rashi. And the answer Tosphot gives seems hard since דאינון means "that are" which would seem to connect more than to disconnect.
However Tosphot does bring a different version of the Mishna on page 165 that says 100 zuz דהוו קיימין "that equal". So that might help explain Tosphot. What are the extra words דהוו קיימין there for except to separate? But still it is not clear why the question of Tosphot would not apply equally well to the Rashbam and to the Ri himself.
I must say that in the Mir Yeshiva in NY, the general approach was more "global." This kind of question would not have occupied much attention by Reb Shmuel Berenbaum, but rather big issue questions like how does this sugia relate to other sugiot as you would see in Reb Haim HaLevi's חידושי הרמב''ם or in Rav Shach's אבי עזרי.
But in Shar Yashuv, this is exactly the kind of question that would have been raised by Rav Naphtali Yeger.
I also should mention that I assume Tosphot answers this somehow in his laconic language but I just so far have not been able to see how Tosphot answer this.
It should be mentioned that the Ri himself is hard to understand.He says if we would only have the statement of the איסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי the when we come to bathhouse we would say he gets 12 because it is not a case of two statements but one statement which explains something about the first statement. But our Gemara in Bava Batra is assuming we already have the statement of bathhouse..I can imagine that my learning partner David Bronson might have been wondering about the Ri also. But that much is fuzzy in my mind. I do not recall. But the part about the question from Bava Batra 165 is somewhat clear to me --that he was bothered by that.
In any case the Ri seems more or less clear. He is going on the Gemara in Bava Metzia where we have the statement of אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי and from that we would not know the bathhouse.
My impression is that the Ri held if something changes the basic meaning of an idea, then it can not be called "explaining it". So if the owner said 12 and then 1 per month which in a leap year means 13, then that is not called "explaining".
Other than that I can not see what else the Ri was saying here.
___________________________________
בבא בתרא ק''ה ע''ב
תוספות ד''ה פרושי מפרש
תוספות asks a question on רש''י from בבא בתרא page קס''ה ע''ב from the משנה that says if in a document it says "So and so borrowed מאה זוז which are עשרים סלעים." (Normally מאה זוז are עשרים וחמשה סלעים.) The lender gets only עשרים סלעים. Then תוספות answers for רש''י that the words in the document are far apart. What bothers me now is that there does not seem to be any difference between the case in בבא בתרא page קס''ה and the cases of אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי nor the case of "I will משכיר to you this bathhouse for a year for שנים עשר זהובים which is one gold coin per month." So the question of תוספות seems to apply just as much to the explanation of תוספות as it does to רש''י and the answer he gives for רש''י does not seem very justified. After all the words מאה זוז do not seem very far from עשרים סלעים. The only word that separates them is דאינון (which are) which should serve to connect the words rather than separate them. The basic סוגיא as it is brought in בבא בתרא page ק''ה ע''ב is this. There is a משנה בבא מציעא ק''ב ע''א that says one person says to another I משכיר to you this bathhouse for a year for שנים עשר זהובים which are דינר זהב per month. רב said he would give the whole 13th month to the owner. They ask on this: "Why did רב need to say this again? He already had said אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי?" That means תפוס לשון אחרון. We go by the last words. Theגמרא answers "we might have said פרושי מפרש" There are three explanations. The רשב''ם and the ר''י who both say פרושי מפרש would go on the bathhouse. But they differ in this. The רשב''ם says If רב had only stated the case of bathhouse, then we might have thought the owner meant שנים עשר זהובים per year, but if it is a leap year then one דינר זהב per month. The ר''י explains if we only had the case of אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי (which we would know means תפוס לשון אחרון), then when we would come to a case of a bathhouse, we would say the owner meant to explain that he meant this. The rent ought to be paid at the end of every month. Not the end of the year. But that still the whole overall price would be שנים עשר זהובים. However רש''י says פרושי מפרש goes on אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי and that it means a אסתרא גרועה, a low value אסתרא or a low grade אסתרא. But that would not imply in general to go by לשון אחרון.
The question on רש''י come from בבא בתרא page קס''ה. The משנה says when the document says מאה זוז that are עשרים סלעים the law is he gets the least amount. That is עשרים סלעים. Also if the document said מאה זוזים which are שלשים סלעים he gets only מאה זוזים. This seems to be a question on everyone. Not just on רש''י. And the answer תוספות gives seems hard since דאינון means "that are" which would seem to connect more than to disconnect. However תוספות does bring a different version of the משנה on page קס''ה that says מאה זוזים דהוו קיימין "that equal". So that might help explain תוספות. What are the extra words דהוו קיימין there for except to separate? But still it is not clear why the question of תוספות would not apply equally well to the רשב''ם and to the ר''י himself.
בבא בתרא ק''ה ע''ב תוספות ד''ה פרושי מפרש. תוספות שואלים שאלה על רש''י מן בבא בתרא דף קס''ה ע''ב מן המשנה שאומרת שאם במסמך כתוב "פלוני לווה מאה זוז שהם עשרים סלעים." (בדרך כלל מאה זוז הם עשרים וחמשה סלעים.) המלווה מקבל רק עשרים סלעים. ואז תוספות נותנים תשובה לרש''י כי המילים במסמך הן רחוקות אחת מהשניה. מה שמטריד אותי עכשיו הוא שלא נראה כל הבדל בין המקרה בבא בתרא דף קס''ה ואת המקרים של "אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי" ולא המקרה של "אני משכיר לך מרחץ זה במשך שנה עבור שנים עשר זהובים אשר הם מטבע זהב אחד לחודש." אז השאלה של תוספות נראה שחלה באותה מידה להסבר של תוספות כפי שהיא חלה לרש''י והתשובה שהוא נותן עבור רש''י לא נראה מוצדק מאוד. אחרי הכל, המילים מאה זוז לא נראות מאוד רחוקות מעשרים סלעים. המילה היחידה שמפרידה אותן היא דאינון (שהם) אשר היא אמורה לשרת לקשר את המילים ולא להפריד ביניהם. סוגיא הבסיסי כפי שהיא מובא בבבא בתרא דף ק''ה ע''ב זו. ישנה משנה בבא מציעא ק''ב ע''א שאומרת אדם אחד אומר לשני שאני משכיר לך מרחץ זה במשך שנה עבור שנים עשר זהובים אשר הם דינר זהב לחודש. רב אמר שייתן בעבור החודש השלשה עשר כולה למשכיר. הם שואלים על זה: "למה רב צריך להגיד את זה שוב? הוא כבר אמר אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי"? כלומר תפוס לשון אחרון. אנחנו עוברים למילים האחרונות. גמרא עונה התשובה "יכולנו אולי לומר פרושי מפרש". ישנם שלושה הסברים. רשב''ם והר''י אומרים "פרושי המפרש" ילך על המרחץ. אבל הם נבדלים בזה. רשב''ם אומר אם רב הגיד רק את המקרה של בית המרחץ, אז אנחנו עלולים לחשוב הבעלים מכוונים שנים עשר זהובים לשנה, אבל אם היא שנה מעוברת אז דינר זהב לחודש. ר''י מסביר שאם רק היה המקרה של אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי (אשר היינו יודעים אמצעי תפוס לשון אחרון), אז כאשר היינו מגיעים למקרה של מרחץ, היינו אומרים הבעלים להסביר התכוונו לזה. דמי השכירות צריכים להיות משולמים בסוף כל חודש. לא סוף השנה. אבל עדיין המחיר הכולל כולו יהיה שנים עשר זהובים לשנה. עם זאת רש''י אומר "פרושי מפרש" נמשך לאסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי וכי פירושו אסתרא גרועה, (ערך נמוך). אבל זה לא היה להגיד בכלל ללכת על לפי לשון אחרון. השאלה על רש''י באה מבבא בתרא דף קס''ה במשנה שאומרת כאשר המסמך אומר "מאה זוז שהם עשרים סלעים" החוק הוא שהוא יקבל את הסכום הנמוך ביותר. כלומר עשרים סלעים. כמו כן אם מסמך מאה זוזים אשר שלשים סלעים הוא מקבל רק מאה זוזים. זה נראית שאלה על כולם. לא רק על רש''י. והתשובה שתוספות נותן נראית קשה מאז המילה דאינון (שהם) הקובעת לכאורה לקשר יותר מלנתק. אולם תוספות מביא גרסה שונה של המשנה בעמוד קס''ה שאומרת מאה זוזים דהוו קיימין (ששווים). כך שזה עשוי לעזור להסביר תוספות. מהן מילות "דהוו קיימין" עושות מלבד להפריד? אבל עדיין לא ברור מדוע שאלת התוספות לא תחול באותה מידה על הרשב''ם ועל הר''י עצמו
I think it was this. Tosphot asks a question on Rashi from Bava Batra page 165B from the Mishna that says if in a document it says So and so borrowed 100 zuzim which are 20 selaim. (Normally 100 zuz are 25 sela.)The lender gets only 20 selaim. Tosphot answer for Rashi that the words in the document are far apart. What probably bothered David and which bothers me now is that there does not seem to be any difference between the case in Bava Batra page 165 and the cases of אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי nor the case of "I will rent to you this bathhouse for a year for 12 gold coins which is one gold coin per month." So the question of Tosphot seems to apply just as much to the explanation of Tosphot as it does to Rashi and the answer he gives for Rashi does not seem very justified. After all the words "100 zuz" do not seem very far from "20 selaim". The only word that separates them is דאינון "which are" which should serve to connect the words rather than separate them.
The basic sugia as it is brought in Bava Batra page 105 is this. There is a Mishna [Baba Metzia 102a] that says One person says to another I will rent to you this bathhouse for a year for 12 gold coins which are 1 per month. Rav said he would give the whole 13th month to the owner. They ask on this: "Why did Rav need to say this again? He already had said אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי?" That means תפוס לשון אחרון. We go by the last words. The Gemara answers "we might have said פרושי מפרש"
There are three explanations. The Rashbam and the Ri who both say פרושי מפרש would go on the bathhouse. But they differ in this.The Rashba says If Rav had only stated the case of bathhouse we might have thought the owner meant 12 per year but if it is a leap year then one gold coin per month. The Ri explains if Rav had only stated the case of אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי (which we would know means תפוס לשון אחרון)then when we would come to a case of a bathhouse we would say the owner meant to explain that he meant the rent ought to be paid at the end of every month. Not the end of the year. But that still the whole overall price would be 12 gold coins.
Rashi says פרושי מפרש goes on אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי and that it means a אסתרא גרועה a low value אסתרא. But that would not imply in general to go by לשון אחרון.
The question on Rashi come from Bava Batra page 165. 100 zuz that are 20 selaim where the law is he gets the least amount.20 selaim. Also if the document said 100 zuz which are 30 sela he gets only 100 zuz. This seems to be a question on everyone. Not just on Rashi. And the answer Tosphot gives seems hard since דאינון means "that are" which would seem to connect more than to disconnect.
However Tosphot does bring a different version of the Mishna on page 165 that says 100 zuz דהוו קיימין "that equal". So that might help explain Tosphot. What are the extra words דהוו קיימין there for except to separate? But still it is not clear why the question of Tosphot would not apply equally well to the Rashbam and to the Ri himself.
I must say that in the Mir Yeshiva in NY, the general approach was more "global." This kind of question would not have occupied much attention by Reb Shmuel Berenbaum, but rather big issue questions like how does this sugia relate to other sugiot as you would see in Reb Haim HaLevi's חידושי הרמב''ם or in Rav Shach's אבי עזרי.
But in Shar Yashuv, this is exactly the kind of question that would have been raised by Rav Naphtali Yeger.
I also should mention that I assume Tosphot answers this somehow in his laconic language but I just so far have not been able to see how Tosphot answer this.
It should be mentioned that the Ri himself is hard to understand.He says if we would only have the statement of the איסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי the when we come to bathhouse we would say he gets 12 because it is not a case of two statements but one statement which explains something about the first statement. But our Gemara in Bava Batra is assuming we already have the statement of bathhouse..I can imagine that my learning partner David Bronson might have been wondering about the Ri also. But that much is fuzzy in my mind. I do not recall. But the part about the question from Bava Batra 165 is somewhat clear to me --that he was bothered by that.
In any case the Ri seems more or less clear. He is going on the Gemara in Bava Metzia where we have the statement of אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי and from that we would not know the bathhouse.
My impression is that the Ri held if something changes the basic meaning of an idea, then it can not be called "explaining it". So if the owner said 12 and then 1 per month which in a leap year means 13, then that is not called "explaining".
Other than that I can not see what else the Ri was saying here.
___________________________________
בבא בתרא ק''ה ע''ב
תוספות ד''ה פרושי מפרש
תוספות asks a question on רש''י from בבא בתרא page קס''ה ע''ב from the משנה that says if in a document it says "So and so borrowed מאה זוז which are עשרים סלעים." (Normally מאה זוז are עשרים וחמשה סלעים.) The lender gets only עשרים סלעים. Then תוספות answers for רש''י that the words in the document are far apart. What bothers me now is that there does not seem to be any difference between the case in בבא בתרא page קס''ה and the cases of אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי nor the case of "I will משכיר to you this bathhouse for a year for שנים עשר זהובים which is one gold coin per month." So the question of תוספות seems to apply just as much to the explanation of תוספות as it does to רש''י and the answer he gives for רש''י does not seem very justified. After all the words מאה זוז do not seem very far from עשרים סלעים. The only word that separates them is דאינון (which are) which should serve to connect the words rather than separate them. The basic סוגיא as it is brought in בבא בתרא page ק''ה ע''ב is this. There is a משנה בבא מציעא ק''ב ע''א that says one person says to another I משכיר to you this bathhouse for a year for שנים עשר זהובים which are דינר זהב per month. רב said he would give the whole 13th month to the owner. They ask on this: "Why did רב need to say this again? He already had said אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי?" That means תפוס לשון אחרון. We go by the last words. Theגמרא answers "we might have said פרושי מפרש" There are three explanations. The רשב''ם and the ר''י who both say פרושי מפרש would go on the bathhouse. But they differ in this. The רשב''ם says If רב had only stated the case of bathhouse, then we might have thought the owner meant שנים עשר זהובים per year, but if it is a leap year then one דינר זהב per month. The ר''י explains if we only had the case of אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי (which we would know means תפוס לשון אחרון), then when we would come to a case of a bathhouse, we would say the owner meant to explain that he meant this. The rent ought to be paid at the end of every month. Not the end of the year. But that still the whole overall price would be שנים עשר זהובים. However רש''י says פרושי מפרש goes on אסתרא מאה מעי מאה מעי and that it means a אסתרא גרועה, a low value אסתרא or a low grade אסתרא. But that would not imply in general to go by לשון אחרון.
The question on רש''י come from בבא בתרא page קס''ה. The משנה says when the document says מאה זוז that are עשרים סלעים the law is he gets the least amount. That is עשרים סלעים. Also if the document said מאה זוזים which are שלשים סלעים he gets only מאה זוזים. This seems to be a question on everyone. Not just on רש''י. And the answer תוספות gives seems hard since דאינון means "that are" which would seem to connect more than to disconnect. However תוספות does bring a different version of the משנה on page קס''ה that says מאה זוזים דהוו קיימין "that equal". So that might help explain תוספות. What are the extra words דהוו קיימין there for except to separate? But still it is not clear why the question of תוספות would not apply equally well to the רשב''ם and to the ר''י himself.
