Bava Metzia page 100a.
A cow is sold and gives birth and we do not know when. If before the deal was concluded, the calf belongs to the first owner. If after the deal was concluded the calf belongs to the second owner.
There is an argument between the Rashbam and Rabbainu Isaac about the the word אלא "rather". That is the Gemara asks, why does חזקת מרא קמא [possession of the first owner] [first owner] not help? The Gemara answers, "rather it is Sumchos." [Sumchos holds money in doubt is divided], That means the Gemara throws out the idea that the calf is in an alley. Rather it is in the property of the second owner, and still there is no חזקת ממון [assumption that since it is in the property of the second owner we give it to him] because the Mishna is like Sumchos.
That is one version.
The other version leaves out the אלא ("rather"). Then this is what the Gemara says: "Why does מרא קמא [first owner] not help? Because it is Sumchos. That is: it is in an alley, but if it was in the property of the second owner, the second owner would acquire it-- even against חזקת מרא קמא even to Sumchos. So we have חזקה מעיקרא that pushes the time forwards along with חזקת רשות thus it belongs to the second fellow. What works against this is חזקת השתא since it gave birth we push that back to time and that helps חזקת מרא קמא
What is important here to notice is the חזקת השתא [what is the present state of affairs we push backwards as far as possible -like a mikve that lacks 40 S'eah We say it was lacking the right amount as far back as the time it was last measured.]. In the beginning of Nida we have חזקא דהשתא can at least put חזקא מעיקרא into doubt if it works together with another חזקא. There is another argument between Tosphot and the Rashbam if that is only in that case of a mikve or if it is a general rule.[Rav Shach mentions this at the beginning of laws of divorce in the Rambam.] Thus in general חזקא דהשתא works to even the odds against חזקא מעיקרא even with no help.
In Bava Metzia pg.100 we have חזקא דהשתא along with חזקת רשות. It is possible I think to say that Tosphot and the Rashbam are being consistent in Bava Metzia with their opinions in Nida. [Tosphot in Bava Metzia actually brings this up in his arguments against the Rashbam in the second Tosphot on the page.]
The major issue that I see here is this: how strong is חזקא דהשתא by itself? Does it just make a doubt and with another חזקא make a certainty? Or even with another חזקא Just make a doubt a it does in Nida?
The reason I mention this is that on the page [BM 100] there is an argument between the Rashbam and Tosphot if שמא with חזקת רשות gets the calf or not.
Appendix: The full Gemara is this ולחזי ברשות דמאן דקיימא בסימטא Let's see where the calf is now? Answer: It is in an alley. So let's just give it to the first owner? It is Sumchos. [Or ''Rather it is Sumchos."] "It is Sumchos" means we leave it in the alley and there מרא קמא would have answered the question but if it had been in the רשות the the second fellow he would now own the calf even to Sumchos. If the Gemara reads "rather it is Sumchos" that means we reject even the idea of the alley. So to answer the first question Let's see where it is? we answer it is Sumchos and that is why even in the domain of the second fellow, he would not own the calf.
What is important to notice is to the sages המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה means that if it is in the actual property of the second owner then it goes to him even against מרא קמא ( the first owner who we know owned it at a certain point in time.)
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בבא מציעא ק' ע''א A cow is sold and gives birth and we do not know when. If before the deal was signed and sealed, then the calf belongs to the first owner. If after the deal was signed, the calf belongs to the second owner.
There is an argument between the רשב''ם and רבינו יצחק about the the word אלא "rather". That is the גמרא asks, why does חזקת מרא קמא not help? The גמרא answers, "rather it is סומכוס." סומכוס holds money in doubt is divided. That means the גמרא throws out the idea that the calf is in an alley. Rather it is in the property of the second owner, and still there is no חזקת ממון because the משנה is like סומכוס.
That is one version.
The other version leaves out the אלא. Then this is what the גמרא says: "Why does מרא קמא not help? Because it is סומכוס. That is: it is in an סימטא, but if it was in the property of the second owner, the second owner would acquire it, even against חזקת מרא קמא even to סומכוס.
What is important here to notice is the חזקת השתא like a מקוה that lacks ארבעים סאה. We say it was lacking the right amount as far back as the time it was last measured. In the beginning of נדה we have חזקא דהשתא can at least put חזקא מעיקרא into doubt if it works together with another חזקה. There is another argument between תוסות and the רשב''ם if that is only in that case of a מקוה or if it is a general rule. רב שך mentions this at the beginning of laws of divorce in the רמב''ם. Thus in general חזקא דהשתא works to even the odds against חזקא מעיקרא even with no help.
In בבא מציעא ק' ע''א we have חזקא דהשתא along with חזקת רשות. Is it possible to say that תוספות and the רשב''ם are being consistent in בבא מציעא with their opinions elsewhere? תוספות in actually brings this up in his arguments against the רשב''ם in the second תוספות on the page.]
The major issue that I see here is this: how strong is חזקא דהשתא by itself? Does it just make a doubt and with another חזקא make a certainty? Or even with another חזקא just make a doubt as it does in נדה ב' ע''ב?
The reason I mention this is that on the page בבא מציעא ק' ע''א there is an argument between the רשב''ם and תוספות if שמא with חזקת רשות gets the calf or not.
The full גמרא is this ולחזי ברשות דמאן דקיימא בסימטא Let's see where the calf is now? Answer: It is in an alley. So let's just give it to the first owner? It is סומכוס. Or rather it is סומכוס.
What is important to notice is to the sages המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה means that if it is in the actual property of the second owner then it goes to him even against מרא קמא
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בבא מציעא ק' ע''א פרה נמכרה ויולדה ואנחנו לא יודעים מתי. אם לפני שהעסקה נחתמה וחתומה, אז העגל שייך לבעליה הראשונים. אם לאחר שהעסקה נחתמה, העגל שייך לבעלים השניים. יש ויכוח בין רשב''ם ורבינו יצחק על המילה אלא. זוהי הגמרא: מדוע חזקת מרא קמא לא עוזרת? הגמרא משיבה ",אלא היא סומכוס." סומכוס מחזיק כסף בספק מחולק. כלומר, הגמרא זורקת את הרעיון כי העגל הוא בסמטה. במקום זה הוא ברשות של הבעלים השניים, ועדיין אין חזקת ממון משום המשנה היא כמו סומכוס. זו גרסה אחת. הגרסה האחרת משמיטה את "אלא". בבבא מציעא ק' ע''א לנו חזקא דהשתא יחד עם חזקת רשות. האם ניתן לומר כי תוספות ואת הרשב''ם הם בקו אחד עם דעותיהם במקום אחר? תוספות למעשה מעלה את השאלה הזו בטיעוניו נגד הרשב''ם בהתוספות השניה בדף.] הנושא המרכזי שאני רואה כאן הוא זה: כמה חזקה היא חזקה דהשתא? האם לחזקת השתא לבדה יש מספיק כח להפוך שאלה לספק ועם חזקה אחרת להפוך לודאות? או רק עם עוד חזקא היא יכולה להפוך לספק כפי שהיא עושה נדה ב' ע''ב? הסיבה שאני מזכיר זאת היא כי בבבא מציעא ק 'ע''א יש ויכוח בין הרשב''ם ותוספות אם שמא עם חזקת הרשות מחליטה את הבעלות על העגל או לא. הגמרא המלאה היא זה ולחזי ברשות דמאן דקיימא? בסימטא. (בוא נראה לאן העגל הוא עכשיו? תשובה: זה בסמטה.) אז בואו פשוט לתת אותו לבעל הראשון? זה סומכוס, (או ליתר דיוק זה סומכוס). מה חשוב לשים לב הוא לחכמים המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה. זה אומר שאם זה ברשות של הבעלים השניים אז זה הולך להם אפילו נגד מרא קמא.
A cow is sold and gives birth and we do not know when. If before the deal was concluded, the calf belongs to the first owner. If after the deal was concluded the calf belongs to the second owner.
There is an argument between the Rashbam and Rabbainu Isaac about the the word אלא "rather". That is the Gemara asks, why does חזקת מרא קמא [possession of the first owner] [first owner] not help? The Gemara answers, "rather it is Sumchos." [Sumchos holds money in doubt is divided], That means the Gemara throws out the idea that the calf is in an alley. Rather it is in the property of the second owner, and still there is no חזקת ממון [assumption that since it is in the property of the second owner we give it to him] because the Mishna is like Sumchos.
That is one version.
The other version leaves out the אלא ("rather"). Then this is what the Gemara says: "Why does מרא קמא [first owner] not help? Because it is Sumchos. That is: it is in an alley, but if it was in the property of the second owner, the second owner would acquire it-- even against חזקת מרא קמא even to Sumchos. So we have חזקה מעיקרא that pushes the time forwards along with חזקת רשות thus it belongs to the second fellow. What works against this is חזקת השתא since it gave birth we push that back to time and that helps חזקת מרא קמא
What is important here to notice is the חזקת השתא [what is the present state of affairs we push backwards as far as possible -like a mikve that lacks 40 S'eah We say it was lacking the right amount as far back as the time it was last measured.]. In the beginning of Nida we have חזקא דהשתא can at least put חזקא מעיקרא into doubt if it works together with another חזקא. There is another argument between Tosphot and the Rashbam if that is only in that case of a mikve or if it is a general rule.[Rav Shach mentions this at the beginning of laws of divorce in the Rambam.] Thus in general חזקא דהשתא works to even the odds against חזקא מעיקרא even with no help.
In Bava Metzia pg.100 we have חזקא דהשתא along with חזקת רשות. It is possible I think to say that Tosphot and the Rashbam are being consistent in Bava Metzia with their opinions in Nida. [Tosphot in Bava Metzia actually brings this up in his arguments against the Rashbam in the second Tosphot on the page.]
The major issue that I see here is this: how strong is חזקא דהשתא by itself? Does it just make a doubt and with another חזקא make a certainty? Or even with another חזקא Just make a doubt a it does in Nida?
The reason I mention this is that on the page [BM 100] there is an argument between the Rashbam and Tosphot if שמא with חזקת רשות gets the calf or not.
Appendix: The full Gemara is this ולחזי ברשות דמאן דקיימא בסימטא Let's see where the calf is now? Answer: It is in an alley. So let's just give it to the first owner? It is Sumchos. [Or ''Rather it is Sumchos."] "It is Sumchos" means we leave it in the alley and there מרא קמא would have answered the question but if it had been in the רשות the the second fellow he would now own the calf even to Sumchos. If the Gemara reads "rather it is Sumchos" that means we reject even the idea of the alley. So to answer the first question Let's see where it is? we answer it is Sumchos and that is why even in the domain of the second fellow, he would not own the calf.
What is important to notice is to the sages המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה means that if it is in the actual property of the second owner then it goes to him even against מרא קמא ( the first owner who we know owned it at a certain point in time.)
______________________________________________________
בבא מציעא ק' ע''א A cow is sold and gives birth and we do not know when. If before the deal was signed and sealed, then the calf belongs to the first owner. If after the deal was signed, the calf belongs to the second owner.
There is an argument between the רשב''ם and רבינו יצחק about the the word אלא "rather". That is the גמרא asks, why does חזקת מרא קמא not help? The גמרא answers, "rather it is סומכוס." סומכוס holds money in doubt is divided. That means the גמרא throws out the idea that the calf is in an alley. Rather it is in the property of the second owner, and still there is no חזקת ממון because the משנה is like סומכוס.
That is one version.
The other version leaves out the אלא. Then this is what the גמרא says: "Why does מרא קמא not help? Because it is סומכוס. That is: it is in an סימטא, but if it was in the property of the second owner, the second owner would acquire it, even against חזקת מרא קמא even to סומכוס.
What is important here to notice is the חזקת השתא like a מקוה that lacks ארבעים סאה. We say it was lacking the right amount as far back as the time it was last measured. In the beginning of נדה we have חזקא דהשתא can at least put חזקא מעיקרא into doubt if it works together with another חזקה. There is another argument between תוסות and the רשב''ם if that is only in that case of a מקוה or if it is a general rule. רב שך mentions this at the beginning of laws of divorce in the רמב''ם. Thus in general חזקא דהשתא works to even the odds against חזקא מעיקרא even with no help.
In בבא מציעא ק' ע''א we have חזקא דהשתא along with חזקת רשות. Is it possible to say that תוספות and the רשב''ם are being consistent in בבא מציעא with their opinions elsewhere? תוספות in actually brings this up in his arguments against the רשב''ם in the second תוספות on the page.]
The major issue that I see here is this: how strong is חזקא דהשתא by itself? Does it just make a doubt and with another חזקא make a certainty? Or even with another חזקא just make a doubt as it does in נדה ב' ע''ב?
The reason I mention this is that on the page בבא מציעא ק' ע''א there is an argument between the רשב''ם and תוספות if שמא with חזקת רשות gets the calf or not.
The full גמרא is this ולחזי ברשות דמאן דקיימא בסימטא Let's see where the calf is now? Answer: It is in an alley. So let's just give it to the first owner? It is סומכוס. Or rather it is סומכוס.
What is important to notice is to the sages המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה means that if it is in the actual property of the second owner then it goes to him even against מרא קמא
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בבא מציעא ק' ע''א פרה נמכרה ויולדה ואנחנו לא יודעים מתי. אם לפני שהעסקה נחתמה וחתומה, אז העגל שייך לבעליה הראשונים. אם לאחר שהעסקה נחתמה, העגל שייך לבעלים השניים. יש ויכוח בין רשב''ם ורבינו יצחק על המילה אלא. זוהי הגמרא: מדוע חזקת מרא קמא לא עוזרת? הגמרא משיבה ",אלא היא סומכוס." סומכוס מחזיק כסף בספק מחולק. כלומר, הגמרא זורקת את הרעיון כי העגל הוא בסמטה. במקום זה הוא ברשות של הבעלים השניים, ועדיין אין חזקת ממון משום המשנה היא כמו סומכוס. זו גרסה אחת. הגרסה האחרת משמיטה את "אלא". בבבא מציעא ק' ע''א לנו חזקא דהשתא יחד עם חזקת רשות. האם ניתן לומר כי תוספות ואת הרשב''ם הם בקו אחד עם דעותיהם במקום אחר? תוספות למעשה מעלה את השאלה הזו בטיעוניו נגד הרשב''ם בהתוספות השניה בדף.] הנושא המרכזי שאני רואה כאן הוא זה: כמה חזקה היא חזקה דהשתא? האם לחזקת השתא לבדה יש מספיק כח להפוך שאלה לספק ועם חזקה אחרת להפוך לודאות? או רק עם עוד חזקא היא יכולה להפוך לספק כפי שהיא עושה נדה ב' ע''ב? הסיבה שאני מזכיר זאת היא כי בבבא מציעא ק 'ע''א יש ויכוח בין הרשב''ם ותוספות אם שמא עם חזקת הרשות מחליטה את הבעלות על העגל או לא. הגמרא המלאה היא זה ולחזי ברשות דמאן דקיימא? בסימטא. (בוא נראה לאן העגל הוא עכשיו? תשובה: זה בסמטה.) אז בואו פשוט לתת אותו לבעל הראשון? זה סומכוס, (או ליתר דיוק זה סומכוס). מה חשוב לשים לב הוא לחכמים המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה. זה אומר שאם זה ברשות של הבעלים השניים אז זה הולך להם אפילו נגד מרא קמא.
