FFB Society [[religious from birth]

 FFB  Society [religious from birth] is  predatory towards BT's [newly religious]. This creates a kind of environment in which the BT's expect to be treated equal,-- because of the ideals of democratic society from where they emerge. Yet they are the first to be blamed, and the last to be helped. Often it more than just last to receive help. Often it is first to receive harm.
And there is a kind of fraud involved in which the actual principles are not the ones that are public.
Family values would be a good example. But there are other examples.
  So the problem with the religious world that Rav Nahman noticed was really not confined to the leaders. It is just that the leaders tend to be particularly insane and evil.
  In the major book of Rav Nahman from Breslov there are a few statements along the lines that show his disapproval of the religious leaders of the Jewish world. For example in the Le.M vol I ch 12 he says that many Torah scholars are demons. And he explains how that comes about.--i.e. by learning Torah for the sake of money or other benefits.

This would be a critque on the Torah itself if the religious world in fact had anything to do with Torah. But outside of a few rituals they adhere to for the sake of show, there is little in the religious world that has anything to do with Torah at all. It is mainly pseudo Torah. Torah for show.

Learning and keeping Torah is important. Because of this it is important to stay away from the religious world which has Torah from the Dark Side. [This is an Idea I saw in the LeM of Rav Nahman.]

So to come to authentic Torah one would have to get out of the insane nonsense of the religious world that have driven themselves into a frenzy of self righteousness.

It may not be pleasent to hear this and I woudl rather not dwell on it, but once in a while it is necessary to say the truth--even when it is ignored. After all the Gra himself signed his name to the letter of excommuncation that more or less says teh same points that I have brought up here. And Rav Shach also. And they were ignored. Rav Kaduri also mentioned this.


There were lots of extinction level events like the one that killed the dinosaurs. Some were even more serious like the Triassic Permian event. But I think it is not known the causes of all of them. In any case asteroids are a serious threat that ought to be prepared for.



Question.  Concerning are the gemarot that encourage deception and having different standards for Jews and non-Jews. I would be glad if you can provide me any kind of justification for the very clear bigoted and hateful talk. The supremacist view. Etc. Is this ostensibly for the betterment of the world that we should be skilled in the arts of double speak and deception? Is that how you [think people ought] to be brought up and taught or does this register for you differently or not at all. Does our treatment at the hands of the Egyptians justify? Are we a race that is attempting evolve past the human state? The logic of eisav soneh et yaakov makes it so that immediately when a Jew leaves the faith he must be deceived and hated as well. There is no middle ground. Either eisav or yaakov. These doctrines are written in stone in the haredi world. You either justify it and live it or you're against. Am i right or wrong? Maybe it's a sacred evil... [The curiosity for] Evil leads to evil. Anyway. Trying to understand difference between evil and selfishness vs chaos vs natural action based upon healthy desire and communion with nature vs service to money vs child sacrifice what all these concepts actually mean in today's world. Who really deserves to live? Whom does God take pride in etc.

What is it the Jewish God specifically hates about the world and its morality? Are we bound to the will of this God or are we simply inextricably illogically bound? What happens if you test this God and say no?

My answer: Very important questions. My answer is more or less based on the idea that the mizvot are to bring to objective morality which is recognizable by reason. Therefore, in anything that conflicts with objective morality, they are not valid. You can see this in particular in R Shimon Ben Yohai who holds that there are reasons for the mizvot and they are recognizable by reason and so when there is a conflict they are not valid.
In other words the Rishonim do not hold from Divine Command Theory. That is the theory that mizvot are good in themselves. No rishon holds that because the gemara itself does not hold it. The Mitzvot are to bring to natural law.

Of course this is not a complete answer. The religious world is not very menschlich [decent]. But so what is the answer? Rav Nahman said the Evil Inclination has evolved. It has become the power of delusion."Dimyon".
And this infects the religious world as much or more so than the secular world.

The big answers for these questions are not clear to me Except to say as Breslov says " I need to look at myself" Why talk about others?" That is from the story of the Simpleton and the wise son.

And so to answer these kinds of questions I have tried to pinpoint the areas that I need to work on. These areas are two fold. One set are things that I am aware i did wrong-so I need to correct. Another set is areas that simply are obligations.

 In sum I see Learning Torah as important. But I think the frum religious world does not represent Torah. I think objective morality depends on input from Torah and Reason as many rishonim held.

natural law

So then the Aquinas approach to natural law is different than the Rambam. I guess that is what you are saying. To Aquinas natural law is  objective morality but not meant to bring to certain goals but rather because it is embedded in the nature of things. Teleological by nature. In think this is what the difference might be.


Rav Israel Salanter

The Musar ethics movement at its core was meant to learn the books of Ethics of the Middle Ages which had a kind of balance between faith and reason. Later Musar became more fanatic.

But fanatic in the wrong kind of way. That is religious fanaticism. And this can lead to ריבוי אור ושבירת הכלים  [too much light that leads to the breaking of one's mental state].

The best answer to this kind of dilemma I think was the path of my parents which was that of balance and menschlichkeit. Not religious fanaticism.
But a justification for this kind of path I did not see until I saw Dr Kelley Ross's web Site the Friesian school. That is a development of Kant. This is a trend of thought that was developed by Leonard Nelson.

In Dr Ross it is shown mainly in his PhD thesis about what he calls a Polynomic Theory of Value.

Danny Frederick

Danny Frederick and Berkeley, i.e. consequentialist theory of political authority.

[As Blandshard put it: without the state no human good is possible. It is a "sine que non" "not possible without which".

Michael Huemer had a debate with Epstein on political authority and to me it seemed that Epstein was right even though Huemer is the greater philosopher. however the actual point really was not clear to me until I saw Danny Frederick's idea that the critique of Huemer on political authority does not apply to Berkeley's consequentialist theory.
[Dr Kelley Ross also noticed the problems with Huemer's position in that debate.]

And I think this consequentialist theory goes well with all mediaeval authorities that I know about.
The Rambam has peace of the state as one of the purposes of many of the laws of the Torah.
Even though the Gemara does not state the reasons for the commandments still it holds the Torah is a consequentialist approach. See Bava Mezia 119a. and lots of other places where the sagesagree with r shimon ben yohai that there are reasons for the commandments that are known. They however disagree about cases where the reason and the letter of the law differ. But that we know the reasons they do not disagree.
Rav Nelkenbaum [who later became a rosh yeshiva of the Mir in NY.]  also pointed out to me that the Ari (Isaac Luria) does not disagree with this point. rather he shows the connections of the commandments with the higher worlds but does not disagree that there are rational and known reasons for them. The Ari certainly does not give reasons himself.

Los Angeles looked better to me when church and state were a part of society. Even as a Jew i felt more comfortable with Merry Christmas and preforming Christian themes in the orchestra in high school than after  radial division of church and state took place. Los Angeles seems to have gone drastically down hill since then. עיר הנידחת. A condemned city.

The actual issue seems to me to have best been dealt with by Rav Avraham Abulafia, Rav Yaakov Emden, the Meiri, the Abravanal, and the Beit Yoseph. These sources I think are well known so there is no reason to go into them. Just Rav Abulafia seems to be ambiguous. You can bring quotes from him that seem to go in two different directions.My own impression is based on his statements that are clearly very positive and also the first PhD thesis of Moshe Idel at Hebrew University.

Gematriot tothe opposite effect do not seem to be proof of anything. After all the numerical value of Moshe is the same as Shemad Heresy. There are lots of examples of that kind of thing. And when they occur no one says they mean that each is identical with teh other. Rather they say זה לאומת זה exact opposites.