I would like to bring an important insight of Rav Shach about a subject that comes up in Bava Kama page 18 and 19. And I would like to add a comment of my own.
Rav Ashi asks, "Is kicking pebbles a change?" The gemara answers this by suggesting by the fact that Rava asks, "Does warning apply to kicking pebbles?"
The way Tosphot understands this I have never been able to figure out but Rav Shach focuses on understanding the Rambam [Damages of money 2:5-6] who says if an animal kicked pebbles which caused damage [not just knocked it its normal way of walking)? In public domain no obligations, but if the injured party grabs 1/4 he keeps it for this is a doubt. If in private domain then 1/4 is obligated, and if the injured party grabs 1/2 he can keep it.
The question is, "Why?" In the first half the Rambam is saying we do not know if kicking is a "Shinui" (change) from the norm. Then right away in the next sentence he says we do know.
Rav Shach explains this. The question he says if kicking is a shinui and thus becomes "keren" horn and fall out of the category of damages caused by the foot of the animal [hof].
So in the public domain if it is not a change the owner is not obligated in anything. If it is a change and thus "Keren" HaTam which is half damages but here because of the doubt he gets only 1/4.
In the private domain if it is not a change the 1/2 damages would be required to pay for, but if a change then 1/4. And this kind of change can go on Keren [horn] also.
Thus far is Rav Shach. I would like to say that the part about the private domain is clear from the gemara. If we do not know if pebbles by kicking is a change then things are clear. If not, then it is 1/2 damages. If yes then a forth--exactly as the Rambam writes. The question is the public domain. If it is a change and thus keren [horn] it should be that side of the doubt would require 1/2 damages, not the fourth that the Rambam states there. [If it is not a change then clearly there is no obligation at all since it is hof in a public domain.]
The way to answer this is something I noticed a few years ago when I was looking at Bava Metzia page 100. I saw based on the Gemara there that the Rambam has a opinion about Sumchos and the Sages that is more complex than is generally known. The idea is that is a domain that is public we go by Sumchos. There is no prior status {Hazaka}. This is like the Rashbam there on that page.
So that helps us here in Bava Kama. Since the issue is damages in a public domain there is no "hazaka" and in that case we go by Sumchos: Money in doubt is divided. So here in the public domain only 1/4 of the damages can be seized by the injured party, not 1/2.
However it is clear to me that Rav Shach answers the question about the 1/4 damages in the public domain in a different way. [Though he is not talking about this specific issue openly.] He holds pebbles and thus change with pebbles applies not just to tooth as a well known but even to keren HaTam. So the fact that the kicking of the pebbles is a Keren Hatam in a public domain would go down to 1/4 just like kicking pebbles in the domain of the injured party would go down to 1/4.
So is my answer valid at all? I would have to go back and look up the Gemara in Bava Metzia 100 and the Rambam about Sumchos to see..
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An important insight of רב שך about a subject that comes up in בבא קמא page 18 and 19. And I would like to add a comment of my own. רב אשי asks, "Is kicking צרורות a שינוי?" The גמרא answers this by suggesting by the fact that רבא asks, "Does העדאה apply to kicking צרורות?"
רב שך focuses on understanding the רמב''ם who says if an animal בעטה צרורות which caused היזק, not just knocked it its normal way of walking? In רשות הרבים no חיוב, but if the ניזק grabs רביע he keeps it for this is a ספק. If in רשות הניזק then forth is obligated, and if the injured party grabs חצי נזק he can keep it. The question is, "Why?" In the first half the רמב''ם is saying we do not know if בעיטה is a שינוי from the norm. Then right away in the next sentence he says we do know. רב שך explains this. The question he says if kicking is a שינוי and thus becomes קרן השור horn and fall out of the category of damages caused by the רגל of the animal. So in the public domain if it is not a change the owner is not obligated in anything. If it is a change and thus קרן התם which is half damages but here because of the doubt he gets only fourth. In the רשות הניזק if it is not a שינוי the half damages would be required to pay for, but if a שינוי then fourth. And this kind of שינוי can go on קרן השור also. Thus far is רב שך. I would like to say that the part about the רשות הניזק is clear from the גמרא. If we do not know if צרורות by בעיטה is a שינוי then things are clear. If not, then it is half נזק. If yes then a fourth, exactly as the רמב''ם writes. The question is the רשות הרבים. If it is a שינוי and thus קרן it should be that side of the ספק would require חצי נזק, not the fourth that the רמב''ם states there. If it is not a שינוי then clearly there is no obligation at all since it is רגל in a public domain. The way to answer this is something I noticed a few years ago when I was looking at בבא מציעא page 100. I saw based on the גמרא there that the רמב''ם has a opinion about סומכוס and the Sages that is more complex than is generally known. The idea is that is a רשות הרבים we go by סומכוס. There is no חזקת ממון. This is like the רשב''ם there on that page.So that helps us here in בבא קמא. Since the issue is damages in a public domain there is no חזקת ממון and in that case we go by סומכוס. ממון המוטל בספק חולקים. So here in the public domain only forth of the damages can be seized by the injured party, not half.
However it is clear to me that רב שך answers the question about the רבע damages in the רשות הרבים in a different way. He holds צרורות and thus שינוי בצרורות applies to שן even to קרן התם. So the fact that the kicking of the צרורות is a קרן התם in a רשות הרבים would go down to 1/4 just like kicking pebbles in the domain of the ניזק would go down to רביע.
עם זאת ברור לי שרב שך עונה על השאלה על נזקי בעיטה בצרורות ברשות הרבים אחרת. נזק על ידי צרורות הוא שינוי על גם בשן ואפילו בקרן התם. כך שהבעיטה של צרורות היא קרן התם ברשות הרבים והייתה יורדת לרביע נזק כמו שיניו בצרורות בתחום הניזק הייתה יורדת לרביע
Rav Ashi asks, "Is kicking pebbles a change?" The gemara answers this by suggesting by the fact that Rava asks, "Does warning apply to kicking pebbles?"
The way Tosphot understands this I have never been able to figure out but Rav Shach focuses on understanding the Rambam [Damages of money 2:5-6] who says if an animal kicked pebbles which caused damage [not just knocked it its normal way of walking)? In public domain no obligations, but if the injured party grabs 1/4 he keeps it for this is a doubt. If in private domain then 1/4 is obligated, and if the injured party grabs 1/2 he can keep it.
The question is, "Why?" In the first half the Rambam is saying we do not know if kicking is a "Shinui" (change) from the norm. Then right away in the next sentence he says we do know.
Rav Shach explains this. The question he says if kicking is a shinui and thus becomes "keren" horn and fall out of the category of damages caused by the foot of the animal [hof].
So in the public domain if it is not a change the owner is not obligated in anything. If it is a change and thus "Keren" HaTam which is half damages but here because of the doubt he gets only 1/4.
In the private domain if it is not a change the 1/2 damages would be required to pay for, but if a change then 1/4. And this kind of change can go on Keren [horn] also.
Thus far is Rav Shach. I would like to say that the part about the private domain is clear from the gemara. If we do not know if pebbles by kicking is a change then things are clear. If not, then it is 1/2 damages. If yes then a forth--exactly as the Rambam writes. The question is the public domain. If it is a change and thus keren [horn] it should be that side of the doubt would require 1/2 damages, not the fourth that the Rambam states there. [If it is not a change then clearly there is no obligation at all since it is hof in a public domain.]
The way to answer this is something I noticed a few years ago when I was looking at Bava Metzia page 100. I saw based on the Gemara there that the Rambam has a opinion about Sumchos and the Sages that is more complex than is generally known. The idea is that is a domain that is public we go by Sumchos. There is no prior status {Hazaka}. This is like the Rashbam there on that page.
So that helps us here in Bava Kama. Since the issue is damages in a public domain there is no "hazaka" and in that case we go by Sumchos: Money in doubt is divided. So here in the public domain only 1/4 of the damages can be seized by the injured party, not 1/2.
However it is clear to me that Rav Shach answers the question about the 1/4 damages in the public domain in a different way. [Though he is not talking about this specific issue openly.] He holds pebbles and thus change with pebbles applies not just to tooth as a well known but even to keren HaTam. So the fact that the kicking of the pebbles is a Keren Hatam in a public domain would go down to 1/4 just like kicking pebbles in the domain of the injured party would go down to 1/4.
So is my answer valid at all? I would have to go back and look up the Gemara in Bava Metzia 100 and the Rambam about Sumchos to see..
__________________________________________________________________________________
An important insight of רב שך about a subject that comes up in בבא קמא page 18 and 19. And I would like to add a comment of my own. רב אשי asks, "Is kicking צרורות a שינוי?" The גמרא answers this by suggesting by the fact that רבא asks, "Does העדאה apply to kicking צרורות?"
רב שך focuses on understanding the רמב''ם who says if an animal בעטה צרורות which caused היזק, not just knocked it its normal way of walking? In רשות הרבים no חיוב, but if the ניזק grabs רביע he keeps it for this is a ספק. If in רשות הניזק then forth is obligated, and if the injured party grabs חצי נזק he can keep it. The question is, "Why?" In the first half the רמב''ם is saying we do not know if בעיטה is a שינוי from the norm. Then right away in the next sentence he says we do know. רב שך explains this. The question he says if kicking is a שינוי and thus becomes קרן השור horn and fall out of the category of damages caused by the רגל of the animal. So in the public domain if it is not a change the owner is not obligated in anything. If it is a change and thus קרן התם which is half damages but here because of the doubt he gets only fourth. In the רשות הניזק if it is not a שינוי the half damages would be required to pay for, but if a שינוי then fourth. And this kind of שינוי can go on קרן השור also. Thus far is רב שך. I would like to say that the part about the רשות הניזק is clear from the גמרא. If we do not know if צרורות by בעיטה is a שינוי then things are clear. If not, then it is half נזק. If yes then a fourth, exactly as the רמב''ם writes. The question is the רשות הרבים. If it is a שינוי and thus קרן it should be that side of the ספק would require חצי נזק, not the fourth that the רמב''ם states there. If it is not a שינוי then clearly there is no obligation at all since it is רגל in a public domain. The way to answer this is something I noticed a few years ago when I was looking at בבא מציעא page 100. I saw based on the גמרא there that the רמב''ם has a opinion about סומכוס and the Sages that is more complex than is generally known. The idea is that is a רשות הרבים we go by סומכוס. There is no חזקת ממון. This is like the רשב''ם there on that page.So that helps us here in בבא קמא. Since the issue is damages in a public domain there is no חזקת ממון and in that case we go by סומכוס. ממון המוטל בספק חולקים. So here in the public domain only forth of the damages can be seized by the injured party, not half.
However it is clear to me that רב שך answers the question about the רבע damages in the רשות הרבים in a different way. He holds צרורות and thus שינוי בצרורות applies to שן even to קרן התם. So the fact that the kicking of the צרורות is a קרן התם in a רשות הרבים would go down to 1/4 just like kicking pebbles in the domain of the ניזק would go down to רביע.
תובנה חשובה של רב שך על נושא שעולה בבבא קמא י''ח וי''ט. ואני רוצה להוסיף הערה משלי. רב אשי שואל "האם בעיטה בצרורות ועל ידי זה גורם נזק היא שינוי? הגמרא עונה על כך בהצעה שרבא שואל, האם העדאה חלה על בעיטה בצרורות? רב שך מתמקד בהבנת הרמב''ם שאומר שאם חיה בעטה בצרורות ועל ידי זה גרמה לנזק, (לא סתם דפקה צרורות בדרך הרגילה של הליכה) ברשות הרבים אין חיוב, אבל אם הניזק תופס את רביע הנזק אין מוציאים ממנו .אם ברשות הניזק אז רבע הנזק חייב, ואם הניזק תופס חצי נזק אין מוציאים ממנו. השאלה היא "למה?" במחצית הראשונה הרמב''ם אומר שאנחנו לא יודעים אם בעיטה היא שינוי מהנורמה. ואז מייד במשפט הבא הוא אומר שאנחנו יודעים שהוא שינוי. רב שך מסביר זאת. השאלה שהוא אומר אם בעיטה היא שינוי היא הופכת לקרן השור ונופלת מקטגוריית הנזקים שנגרמו ברגל בעל החיים. אז ברשות הרבים אם זה לא שינוי הבעלים אינם מחויבים בשום דבר. אם זה שינוי ובכך קרן התם שהוא חצי נזק, אבל כאן רבע הנזק . ברשות הניזק אם זה לא שינוי חצי הנזקים יידרשו לשלם עבורם, אבל אם הוא שינוי אז רבע. וסוג כזה של שינוי יכול להמשיך גם על קרן השור. עד כאן רב שך. ברצוני לומר שהקטע על רשות הניזק ברור מהגמרא. אם איננו יודעים אם צרורות על ידי בעיטה היא שינוי או לא, אז הדברים ברורים. אם לא, אז זה חצי נזק. אם כן אז רבע, בדיוק כמו שכותב הרמב''ם. השאלה היא הרשות הרבים. אם זה שינוי ולכן קרן, זה צריך להיות שהצד של הספק ידרוש חצי נזק, לא כהרמב''ם שם. אם זה לא שינוי, אז ברור שאין חיוב כלל מכיוון שהוא רגל ברשות הרבים. תירוץ: בבא מציעא עמוד ק'. ראיתי על סמך הגמרא שם שלרמב''ם יש דעה בעניין סומכוס וחכמים שהיא מורכבת יותר ממה שהיא ידוע באופן כללי. הרעיון הוא שזה רשות הרבים שאנחנו מחזיקים כסומכוס. אין חזקת ממון. זה כמו הרשב''ם שם בדף ההוא. אז זה עוזר לנו כאן בבא קמא. מכיוון שהנושא הוא נזק ברשות הרבים, אין חזקת ממון ובמקרה זה, אנו מחזיקים כסומכוס. ממון המוטל בספק חולקים. אז כאן ברשות הרבים על רקע הנזקים מגיע לניזק רק רבע.
עם זאת ברור לי שרב שך עונה על השאלה על נזקי בעיטה בצרורות ברשות הרבים אחרת. נזק על ידי צרורות הוא שינוי על גם בשן ואפילו בקרן התם. כך שהבעיטה של צרורות היא קרן התם ברשות הרבים והייתה יורדת לרביע נזק כמו שיניו בצרורות בתחום הניזק הייתה יורדת לרביע
