Shabat 68b 69 a.
Rabbi Yochanan says if one forgets a work or it punishment that is called accidental. Reish Lakish said knowing it is forbidden but forgetting the punishment is called on purpose. Rather accidental is only when he forgot the work and its punishment.



The Mishna says 39 types of work are forbidden and enumerates them. Why tell the number? We can all count. To tell us if he does all 39 in one span of forgetting, he brings 39 sin offerings. That is OK to Rabbi Yochanan. but what about to Reish Lakish. He is gong like Rabbi Akiva in terms of boundries.




Maimonides. Laws of accidental sacrifices 7. Halacha 3. He says the law is like Rabbi Yochanan that forgetting a kind of work on Shabat or its punishment counts as accidental. That is he can bring a sin offering. If he forgets all 39 types of work then he brings 39 sin offerings. The son of the Rambam was asked in what way does he then remember Shabat? [He is called Rabbi Avraham by mistake. He is Rav Avraham. Neither he nor his father has semicha.  If someone would call me "doctor" that would not be a compliment. I have no Ph.D so why call me such a name? That last people to have semicha lived in the beginning of the time of the Talmud. That is why we call Rabbi Yochanan "Rabbi" and his student was Resih Lakish until Rabbi Yochanan gave him semicha and he was called Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish. But after the middle of the time of the Talmud no one has the right to be called "rabbi" because no one has or can have semicha.]

He answered either his father meant he forgot all "or" as in this or that but not both. That is either he forgot all the punishment for all 39 but knows they are forbidden. Or he forgot that all 38 are forbidden and one he forgot the punishment but remembered it is forbidden.

To Reish Lakish the Talmud had the same problem but answered he remembered Shabat by the fact of the Shabat boundary is forbidden from the Torah to Rabbi Akiva.

Rav Elazar Menachem Shach said we could answer for the Rambam that he knows the 12 mile boundary is forbidden from the Torah.

My point here is this. Even if Rabbi Yochanan would hold by Rabbi Akiva about the 2000 yard boundary how would that help us? [Nor does 12 miles help either.] It could very well be that he does not consider knowledge of a boundary to be called knowing about Shabat when it comes to brings a sin offering?

Think about the arrow. To Reish Lakish knowing punishment is considered a lot but to R. Yochanan it is considered little. So something that is little to Reish Lakish to Rabbi Yochanan might considered nothing.


Appendix for the public-- 39 types of work are mainly things that go into making bread or planting crops. But there are a few extra like writing and carrying in a public domain. lighting a fire is one of them also but electric lights are not fire. Nor is cooking with electricity considered cooking. It has to be fire. You can see this in the end of chapter 3 of Shabat. Cooking with a magnifying glass is not cooking. תולדות החמה is not cooking. It has to be תולדות אש to be considered cooking. But driving a car uses fire. The spark plug does make fire in order to ignite the gas in the four parts engine. That is- the gasoline is made into a gas in one chamber. Then the spark plug makes a spark that ignites it and it expands and that is what drives the car.

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שבת סח: סט ע''א
רבי יוחנן says if one forgets a אב מלאכה or its עונש that is called שוגג. But ריש לקיש said knowing it is forbidden but forgetting the עונש is called on purpose. Rather accidental is only when he forgot the work and its עונש.



The משנה says ל''ט אבות מלאכות are forbidden and enumerates them. Why tell the number? We can all count. To tell us if he does all ל''ט in one העלמה, he brings ל''ט חטאות. That is OK to רבי יוחנן, but what about to ריש לקיש? He is going like רבי עקיבא in terms of תחומים.




רמב''ם. הלכות שגגות ז:ג. He says the law is like רבי יוחנן that forgetting a אב מלאכה on שבת or its punishment counts as שוגג. That is he can bring a חטאת. If he forgets all ל''ט types of work then he brings ל''ט חטאות. The son of the רמב''ם was asked, "In what way does he then remember Shabat?"

He answered either his father meant he forgot all מלאכות או עונשן as in this or that but not both. That is either he forgot all the punishment for all ל''ט but knows they are forbidden. Or he forgot that all ל''ח are forbidden and one he forgot the עונש but remembered it is אסורה.

To ריש לקיש the תלמוד had the same problem but answered he remembered שבת by the fact of the תחום שבת is forbidden from the תורה to רבי עקיבא.

רב אלעזר מנחם שך said we could answer for the רמב''ם that he knows the י''ב מיל boundary is forbidden from the Torah.

My point here is this. Even if רבי יוחנן would hold by רבי עקיבא about the אלפיים yard boundary how would that help us? It could very well be that he does not consider knowledge of a boundary to be called knowing about שבת when it comes to brings a חטאת?

Think about the arrow. To ריש לקיש knowing העונש is considered a lot but to רבי יוחנן it is considered little. So something that is ידיעה קטנה to ריש לקיש to רבי יוחנן might considered כלום.

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 שבת סח: סט ע''א רבי יוחנן אומר שאם אחד שכח אב מלאכה או עונשה שזה נקרא שוגג. אבל ריש לקיש אמר כשבן אדם יודע  שזה אסור, אבל שוכח את העונש שזה נקרא על מזיד. לא נקרא שוגג רק כאשר הוא שכח את העבודה ועונשה. המשנה אומרת ל''ט אבות מלאכות אסורות ומונה אותם. למה לומר את המספר? כולנו יכולים לספור. לומר לנו אם הוא עושה את כל ל''ט בהעלמה אחת, הוא מביא ל''ט חטאות. זה בסדר לרבי יוחנן, אבל מה לגבי לריש לקיש? הוא הולך כמו רבי עקיבא  בתחום שבת.
רמב''ם, הלכות שגגות ז: ג. לדבריו, החוק הוא כמו רבי יוחנן. היינו ששוכח אב מלאכה בשבת או העונש שלה נחשב שוגג. כלומר הוא יכול להביא חטאת. אם הוא שוכח את כל ל''ט סוגי עבודה  אז הוא מביא ל''ט חטאות. בנו של רמב''ם נשאל, באיזה אופן הוא זוכר אז שבת?

הוא ענה גם אביו אומר שהוא שכח את כל מלאכות או עונשן כמו זה או זה, אבל לא שניהם. זה או שהוא שכח את כל העונשים על כל ל''ט אבל יודע שהם אסורים. או שהוא שכח  של''ח אסורות ואחת שכח עונשה אבל נזכר שזה אסור. או נזכר בתולדות.

לריש לקיש התלמוד ענתה שהוא נזכר שבת על ידי העובדה שזכר שתחום שבת אסור מן התורה לרבי עקיבא. רב אלעזר מנחם שך אמר שאנחנו יכולים לענות לרמב''ם שהוא יודע  גבול י''ב מיל אסור מן התורה. הנקודה שלי כאן היא זו. גם אם רבי יוחנן יחזיק ידי רבי עקיבא על אלפיים או י''ב מיל, איך זה יעזור לנו? זה יכול מאוד להיות שהוא אינו רואה את הידע של גבול להיקרא ידיעה על שבת כשמדובר בהבאת חטאת? תחשוב על החץ. לריש לקיש ידיעת העונש נחשב הרבה אבל לרבי יוחנן זה נחשב קטן. אז משהו שהוא ידיעה קטנה לריש לקיש לרבי יוחנן יכול להיות שהוא נחשב לאפס.

It is not IQ. It is (IQ) *(capacity for work).

What makes for success? It is not IQ. It is (IQ) *(capacity for work). I saw this in my own life many times.

This is my guess based on Bryan Caplan.

I mean my own IQ is small. But I also saw that with lots of work, I could get father than people with genius IQ's. But I also have a very low  ceiling of how far work can get me. And I have very high respect for smart people. My learning partner in Talmud  finds things that I would never see even I would learn the page a thousand times. What happens in Lithuanian yeshivas is there is a kind or appreciation for these two factors coupled: (a) זיצ פלעש the ability to work--in yeshiva jargon that is called the ability to sit and concentrate for many hours and (b)  smartness.

But what we learn from this is simple. For someone like me that is not smart, the main thing is to concentrate on one thing-- if you want to get anywhere. I mean the "smartness thing" there is not much I can do anything about.

And this idea of concentrating on one thing at a time has been a great help for me. For example in understanding Tosphot I have found it useful to stay on one Tosphot for a long time, since it seems to me impossible to penetrate the deeper meaning of Tosphot without doing this. and even very smart people have a disadvantage in this because they are so smart they think they understand Tosphot right away when they have completely missed what is going on. Smartness I have seen can be  terrible disadvantage.

Sing to God all the earth

q66  l98 great title black hole mathematics  [q66 in midi] [q66 nwc][l98 in midi] [l98 nwc] black hole in midi [black hole nwc] mathematics in midi [mathematics nwc] [q96 mp3 e flat major] [q96 midi e flat major]\[q96 e flat major nwc]q96 F major mp3 q96 midi f major q96 f major nwc

 Mathematics and Physics are the natural laws by which God made the world and embedded into the world and told the world these are my laws --obey them. He told light to obey the laws of relativity. He told electrons to obey quantum mechanics. He told the planets to obey General Relativity. So these laws are the laws of God.So they definitely have Torah inside of them. But we do not know the Torah inside of them. So they are the secrets of Torah.
[Also, I believe Rav Nachman of Breslov had great insights in Torah, but there is a dofference between Rav Nachman of Bresolv and Breslov who imagine that they are folloing his path. However, they are polar oppsosites.]
But furthermore I hold the Zohar is not the secrets of Torah.  I have respect for the great tzadikim like the Ari and the Remak and the Gra ,


In any case I think the Zohar got everything off track. And I think it would make a good deal of common sense to get back to the kind of rational Judaism that the Rambam and Saadia Gaon had in mind. Not that we have to take everything they said at face value. Nor do we have to ignore the great tzadikim like the Ari who did have great insights into Torah. Rather we simply have to switch tracks back to the Rambam and away from the Zohar.

 The Islamic 'way of war' was based on pin prick, ultra violent raids (Razzias) meant not Just to kill people, but to intimidate and demoralize the infidel by, among, other things making population terrorized, fearful More often than not, the tactics succeeded in 'softening up' the local population and paralyzing their will so that they became 'like deer in the headlights' during the next, and then the next, and then the next raid by the 'Ghazis.' 'Terrorism' was not a tactic, it was a long-term strategy. (See invasions and conquests of N.Africa and Byzantium and India.) Physical damage was less the immediate point than psychological warfare. Our contemporary jihadis have already succeeded in nullifying our First Amendment to the degree that his newspaper dares not reprint 'blasphemous' cartoons or other criticisms of 'The Prophet.' You 'get away from the fear' by Submitting (which is what Islam actually means). 

Comment by Lawrence Frank in http://www.econlib.org/


The effects of submission are severe.  The tendency is to partake less than noble characteristics of Muslims. There is a point where you have to stand up for your own identity.

That is in plain English is you don't invite someone into your home that means you harm. And Muslims mean harm. 

Now to some degree I realize that all this has happened because of a weakening and rupture of Christendom. I mean to say that before the Reformation, there was a kind of difficult union between Faith and Reason. Afterwards each went it merry way. But in that there was a weakening of each.
And this same event occurred in the Jewish world also.


Therefore the best solution is to rekindle the essence of Judaic-Christian civilization. That is by learning Torah, i.e. the Oral and Written Law. In particular I have in mind Israel Salanter's ideas of learning the basic books of ethics from the Middle ages before the rupture between faith and reason began.

The reason the Muslim invasion of Europe was stopped 500 years ago was because the Christians fought back and stopped them at Vienna. Now they are being invited back.

And that was not the first time Muslim needed to be stopped by force. The Crusades were a direct result of Muslim attacks on the Eastern Roman Empire centered in Constantinople and also their attacks on Europe. Spain had been a Christian nation until Muslims conquered it piece by piece until driven out by force. But until today Spain shows the effects of Muslim rule. It is like a 3rd world country that just happens to be in Europe.

The modern world has lost the meaning of life. And also there is no guide to life. No example to follow. No wise teacher. Just frauds and charlatans. Faceless labor and domination of the elite is what characterizes the modern age. What I suggest is to find the moments of rupture. To find the original meaning of the Torah. But moments of rupture are many in the Torah tradition, so it is not easy to define exactly what we are looking for. Prophecy as in the age of the prophets? The wisdom of the sages?

Without beating around the bush, let me say the best of Lithuanian  yeshivas
have in fact been able to redeem from the past those treasures worth preserving, that is the Rishonim. Medieval authorities. And wisely avoided most of what came later as being misguided delusions.
The main criterion should be authenticity.




The Christan world also encountered moments of rupture. Mainly the Reformation.
[I don't intend to address Christians. This is however not just a side comment. It does show a kind of parallel to our own situation. Also the problem with rupture is you can't return to the pre-rupture state. In the Reformation, both sides lost many good aspects by reason of the break.]

There are traditions that it is good to break away from. Sadly terrorists have managed to link up with their true origins. But that kind of authenticity is not what I am after here. I am more interested in authenticity from the Side of Good and Light. Not from darkness and evil and death as in Islam.


So what we need is not traditionalism, or religious fanaticism but authenticity.
To find the breaks in the past and mend them.

This might sound like I have a solution for this problem. But I don't. I have been in a couple of authentic yeshivas like the Chaim Berlin, Torah VeDaat, and the Mir  in NY and Shar Yashuv in Far Rockaway. But these authentic kinds of places are few and far between, and most attempts to recreate such things are futile.

It is hard to find someone who can teach Torah for its own sake and students that want to learn Torah for its own sake.

My suggestion is then since most people like myself are not close to authentic yeshivas is to have a hour a day of learning fast to get through the Old Testament,  and the entire Talmud with every single word of the Gemara, Tosphot, Mahrasha, and Maharam from Lublin. And then another hour of learning in depth that is to stay on one Tosphot for a couple of months until the shell starts cracking and you can see the depths and light inside. {But don't get paid for this. Getting money for learning ruins the effect. It is the same as if you would get paid for praying.}

Two hours is not a lot. You then  have the rest of the day to go to university (for a vocation or natural sciences--no pseudo sciences please.) and then go surfing.

Continued from yesterday about the Talmud in Shabat 68b and 69a

My learning partner  said that  on the other hand it could be that these are the actual opinions of Rabbi Yochanan  and Reish Lakish.  After all there is no reason for them to tie together תינוק שנשבה along with this different issue about if lack of knowledge of punishment makes it accidental. These might well be independent variables. And what happened on page 68B was Rabbi Akiva was using
 the slippery slope argument. That is, "If you hold that way well let's take it to the utmost limit. And that is usually considered informal fallacy." But it does not have to be  a fallacy. If I say to  a communist "You type of system would logically lead to such and such bad consequences (like the murder of between 20 and 50 millions )", he would have to show why these would would not logically  follow. So in the debate between Rabbi Akiva and Munbaz all Munbaz had to do was to say to Rabbi Akiva I don't hold that your taking my opinion to the outer most limit is valid--because it does not logically follow. Munbaz did not do that but it could be Rabbi Yochanan and Reish Lakish would do that.

The trouble here is that Munbaz learns his law from a verse and and Rashi says he means it as a gezera shava גזרה שווה which means you take all the laws from one place and place them in the other place and visa verse. So in fact Rabbi Akiva would have a good reason to say his objection to Munbaz. But Rashi also says Munbaz means it as a בניין אב. That would not make any difference in our case but we are in general looking at this like a היקש In which case Munbaz would be right. The question is what is Rashi doing? Is it a gezra shava or a binyan av and why not saying it is a simple hekesh?
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My learning partner  said that  on the other hand it could be that these are the actual opinions of רבי יוחנן  and ריש לקיש.  After all there is no reason for them to tie together תינוק שנשבה along with this different issue about if lack of knowledge of עונש makes it שוגג. These might well be independent variables. And what happened on page ס''ח ע''ב was רבי עקיבא was using
 the טיעון מדרון חלקלק. That is, "If you hold that way well let's take it to the utmost limit. And that is usually considered כשל לוגי בלתי פורמלי." But it does not have to be  a כשל לוגי. If I say to  a communist "You type of system would logically lead to such and such bad consequences like the murder of between 20 and 50 millions", he would have to show why these would would not logically  follow. So in the debate between רבי עקיבא and מונבז all מונבז had to do was to say to רבי עקיבא "I don't hold that your taking my opinion to the outer most limit is valid because it does not logically follow. מונבז did not do that but it could be רבי יוחנן and ריש לקיש would do that.

The trouble here is that מונבז learns his law from a פסוק and and רש''י says he means it as a גזרה שווה which means you take all the laws from one place and place them in the other place and visa verse. So in fact רבי עקיבא would have a good reason to say his objection to מונבז. But רש''י also says מונבז means it as a בניין אב. That would not make any difference in our case but we are in general looking at this like a היקש in which case מונבז would be right. The question is what is רש''י doing? Is it a גזרה שווה or a בניין אב. And why not say it is a simple היקש?



 השותף למידה שלי אמר שמצד שני זה יכול להיות שמדובר בחוות הדעת האמיתית של רבי יוחנן וריש לקיש. אחרי הכל אין שום סיבה להם לקשור התינוק שנשבה יחד עם נושא האם חוסר הידע של עונש עושה את זה שוגג. אלה עשויים  להיות משתנים בלתי תלויים. ומה קרה בדף ס''ח ע''ב היה שרבי עקיבא היה באמצעות טיעון מדרון החלקלק. כלומר, "אם אתה מחזיק ככה גם בוא לקחת אותו לגבול עליון." וזה בדרך כלל נחשב כשל לוגי בלתי פורמאלית. אבל זה לא צריך להיות כשל לוגי. אם אני אומר לקומוניסט "הסוג של מערכת החשיבה שלך היה מוביל לתוצאות רעות כמו הרצח של בין עשרים ל חמישים מיליון", הוא יצטרך להראות מדוע אלה לא היו עקב המערכת הפוליטית. אז בוויכוח בין רבי עקיבא ומונבז, כל מה שמונבז היה צריך לעשות הוא להגיד לרבי עקיבא "אני לא מחזיק כי  צריכים לקחת את דעתי על עד סוף הגבול החיצוני. מונבז לא עשה את זה אבל  יכול להיות שרבי יוחנן וריש לקיש היו עונים את זה. הבעיה כאן היא שמונבז לומד המשפט מפסוקים, ורש''י אומר שהוא אומר את זה כגזרה שווה שאומר שאתה לוקח את כל החוקים ממקום אחד למקם השני ואותם  במקום השני למקום הראשון. כך שלמעשה לרבי עקיבא הייתה סיבה טובה לומר הטיעון כנגד מונבז. אבל גם רש''י אומר מונבז אומר שזה כמו בניין האב. זה לא היה עושה  הבדל גדול  אבל אנחנו בכלל מסתכלים על זה כמו היקש ובמקרה כזה מונבז יהיה תקין. השאלה היא מה רש''י עושה? האם זה גזרה שווה או בניין האב. ולמה לא אומר שזה פשוט היקש?