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25.6.25

I was at the sea again and a few questions entered into my mind about the answer of Rav Shach about the law in the Rambam laws of marriage 5 law 7 that says a man can marry a woman by an object he stole. Just to be clear let me explain what Rav Shach says in order to answer the problem in the Rambam. The problem is that the thief does not own the obsject that he stole. But if he sells ,it or gives it to someone else, and the owner has given up hope of getting the object again, then the third person can keep it. The problem with using the object to marry a woman is that, even though she owns it by means of change of domain and abandonment, but the object did not belong to the thief. There was` no change of domain until it got into the hand of the woman. As the Ketzot Hachohen writes, you need to marry a woman by your own money, not money that become her's after receiving it. The answer of Rav Shach and R. Shmuel Rozovski is that the thief has certain rights in the object and theso he gives to her. ///The rights that Rav Shach is referring to are if the animal he stole gave birth or if it was sheep an'sd he sheared it or if he plows with an ox that he stole it. however, when one buys a field from a person that stole it and put inh time money and effort to improve it. When the field goes back to, the buyer gets repaid from the thief for the improvement [Rambam laws of robbery chapter 9 law 6]. but it seems to me that these are not rights, but rather just facts that result from the law that a robber pays back only the thing he stole as it was at the time he stole it. Therefore, automatically, any later improvements go to the thief. It is hard to conceive of this as a right./////Besides all the above, I might mention that even though the third party does not have to pay for the object according to the Raavad, but according to the Rambam, the third person that bought something from a thief does have to pay for it even though he keeps it. And even in the case of buying from a thief that was not well known, it is only by a decree of the sages that the one that bought it does not have to pay, but from the law of the torah he would have to pay. So even though the woman can keep the stolen object, the fact is that from the law of the torah, she would have to pay for it, and therefore she should be married only by the words of the sages, not from the torah. --------------------------------------------------A few questions occurred to me about the answer of רב שך about the law in the רמב''ם. a man can marry a woman by giving to her an object he stole. Let me explain what רב שך says in order to answer the problem in the רמב''ם. The problem is that the thief does not own the object that he stole. But if he sells it or gives it to someone else, and the owner has given up hope of getting the object again, then the third person can keep it. The problem with using the object to marry a woman is that even though she owns it by mean of change of domain and abandonment, but the object did not belong to the thief. There was` no change of domain until it gets into the hand of the woman. As the קצוות החושן writes, you need to marry a woman by your own money, not money that becomes her after receiving it. The answer of ר' שך is that the thief has certain rights in the object, and these rights he gives to her. ...The rights that רב שך is referring to are about are if the animal he stole gave birth or if it was sheep and he sheared it, or if he plows with an ox that he stole it. However, when one buys a field from a person that stole it and put in time money and effort to improve it. When the field goes back to the owner, the buyer gets repaid from the thief for the improvement [רמב''ם laws of גזלה chapter 9 law 6]. But it seems to me that these are not rights, but rather just facts that result from the law that a robber pays back only the thing he stole as it was at the time he stole it. Therefore, automatically, any later improvements go to the thief. It is hard to conceive of this as a right. ///Just to be clear let me explain what רב שך say in order to answer the problem in the רמב''ם. the problem is that the thief does not own the object that he stole. but if he sells it or gives it to someone else and the owner has given up hope of getting the object again then the third person can keep it. the problem with using the object to marry a woman is that even though he owns it by mean of change of domain and abandonment but the object did not belong to the thief. There was` no change of domain until it gets into the hand of the woman. As the קצוות החושן writes חושן משפט שנ''ג , you need to marry a woman by your own money, not money that become her after receiving it. the answer of ר' שך is that the thief has certain rights in the object, and these rights he gives to her./// The problem I see in this answer is even from the place that רב שך brings, I see no answer. The third person there, the one that bought the stolen ox, and plowed with it does not have to pay for it use, but that does not mean that the thief had any rights. Besides all the above, I might mention that even though the third party does not have to pay for the object according to the ראב''ד , but according to the רמב''ם, the third person that bought something from a thief does have to pay for it even though he keeps it. And even in the case of buying from a thief that was not well known, it is only by a decree of the חכמים that the one that bought it does not have to pay but from the law of the תורה he would have to pay. so even though the woman can keep the stolen object, the fact is that from the law of the תורה, she would have to pay for it, and therefore he should be married only by the words of the חכמים, not from the תורה.