Talmud Bava Metzia Shavuot

I wanted to suggest that there needs to be some work to iron out the two subjects in Bava Metzia page 104a and in Shavuot 44a.
I am not saying these two Gemaras agree. But we need to find out if they do and if they don't then in what exact areas do they disagree?

This essay would be valid if we go like the Maharshal who considered Tosphot to continue in his normal vein that דורשין לשון הדיוט means we considered it written even if it is not written. But I think we have to drop this assumption.





I mean in Shavuot the Gemara says Shmuel only said his law in a case where he stated explicitly that the pledge is for the whole loan. [To the girsa (version) of Rabbainu Tam and Rabainu Chananel which Tosphot defends.] [We could switch this around but I am not sure this would help us.] In Bava Metzia the Gemara says one can't take a pledge more than the amount of the loan because דורשין לשון הדיוט that whether he says so or not the pledge is owned even if it is more than the loan. [That is a small pledge will still be taken as the equivalent of a large loan.] [That is we do not have a contradiction. All Shmuel says is a small pledge is equal to a large loan and all the Gemara says in Bava Metzia is the whole pledge is owed even if it is more than the loan.]

There are still many details to work out. But even before I can get to the details, I need to get the idea. Is what we are saying is the pledge is owned completely even if more than the loan and that even if it is small it is equal to the whole loan. If so these two concepts do seem contradictory prima facie.

Then the Gemara concludes not like Shmuel in Shavuot. In Shavuot the Gemara says the pledge is only equal to its own monetary value and that is the amount that it is considered to be against the loan. That is the conclusion of the Gemara--whether he says so explicitly or not  and whether the pledge was taken at the time of the loan or not. [See the Rif.] So this Gemara in Shavuot seems not like the one in Bava Metzia.

 The Gemara in BM says we consider what has been out of the document of the loan as if it was written. [That is how Tosphot explains the sugia there.] (So the Gemara there certainly makes no difference if something was written and explained openly or not. This is already entirely against the Gemara in Shavuot where the Gemara resolves the contradiction between the Mishna and Shmuel  by says one is where it was said openly the pledge is against the loan and the other is where this was not stated. And the Gemara never goes against this there. It just says no one holds from Shmuel but they do not ever modify the opinion of Shmuel. Tosphot however says if fact the law is like Shmuel but this would not make any difference in our sugia because our sugia is just the opposite case of Shmuel. If Shmuel is when he explained his meaning openly then our sugia is when he did not]


What I am thinking of doing is to say the pledge is owned even more than the loan and when the loan is payed back the amount the pledge is more than the loan has to be paid for by the borrower if he wants his pledge back. And I suggest this is what the Gemara means in BM when it  says "אלא לגירעון."  And that I think we have to say this Gemara in BM does hold by Shmuel. Furthermore the Gemara in BM is only saying this is the opinion of R Yehoshua Ben Karcha.

It is also possible that Shmuel means the pledge is considered equal to the loan even when the monetary value of the pledge is more than the loan, [not just when it is less]. In fact this might be best because then the two Gemaras might be  holding that we do not hold by Shmuel in this case and that we always look only at the monetary value of the pledge.



Appendix: That is about as far as I can think right now. The problems never seems to let up on me for me to be able to concentrate anymore. But just for the convenience of the reader I will just say over quickly the Gemara in Shavuot. The Mishna says the pledge is against the loan only according to its own monetary worth. The Gemara asks this seems not like Shmuel who says the pledge is considered equal to the whole loan. The Gemara answers  Shmuel is when he said so explicitly and the mishna is when he did not. Let's say the opinion of Shmuel is the subject of an argument between two Tenaim. R Eliezer says if the lender lost the pledge he takes an oath that it was by accident and he collects the whole loan. R Akiva says: "The borrower can say 'Why did I give  a pledge in the first place but to be for the loan? You lost the pledge, you lost the loan.'"
The Gemara says that neither R Eliezer nor R Akiva hold from Shmuel and rather they disagree about the law of R. Isaac. R. Isaac said the lender owns the pledge. Then the Gemara pushes that off and says R Isaac was talking about a case when the pledge was taken not at the time of the loan and in that case everyone agrees with R Isaac. Rather their argument is when the pledge was taken at the time of the loan and it is parallel to the argument between Raba and Rav Joseph. Raba said a the finder of a lost object has the category of a unpaid guard. Rav Joseph said a paid guard. The gemara says even then if the lender does not need the pledge there is no disagreement. Rather the case is when the lender needs to use the pledge.

The gemara in Bava Metzia says R. Yehoshua Ben Karcha  דורש לשון הדיוט. That means that we look at the exact language of the document. So when he writes כל תשלומתא  דאית לך כל קבל דיכי that means the pledge is considered to be for the whole loan even if the pledge is not worth much. The Gemara asks but what if he did not write that? Then he would not own the whole pledge? But that contradicts Rabbi Yochanan who said the lender can take the whole pledge from the orphans. So he owns it even when he did not write anything. Rather yehoshua Ben Karcha meant that if the pledge goes down in value and the loan is defaulted on then we go after other property in order that teh whole loan should be paid back.




In any case one difficulty i forgot to mention is the basic contradiction: In Shavuot the whole difference between Shmuel and Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Elizer is whether he explained openly that the pledge is considered equal to the loan or not. And in Bava Metzia this difference is completely erased by the idea we considered it written even if it has not been written. The answer might be that explaining the difference is not the same as writing a document. And in fact the Gemara says in Shavuot that there is no argument between Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Eliezer when he has written a document. That means Rabbi Eliezer then agrees with Rabbi Akiva but not Shmuel. So we still seem to have  a problem.

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I wanted to suggest that there needs to be some work to iron out the two subjects in בבא מציעא page ק''ד ע''א and in שבועות מ''ד ע''א
I am not saying these two גמרות agree. But we need to find out if they do and if they don't then in what exact areas do they disagree?







I mean in שבועות the גמרא says שמואל only said his law in a case where he stated explicitly that the משכון is for the whole הלוואה. To the גרסה of רבינו תם  and רבינו חננאל which תוספות defends. We could switch this around but I am not sure this would help us. In בבא מציעא the גמרא says one can't take a משכון more than the amount of the הלוואה because דורשין לשון הדיוט that whether he says so or not the משכון is owned even if it is more than the הלוואה. That is a small משכון will still be taken as the equivalent of a large הלוואה. That is,  we do not have a contradiction. All שמואל says is a small משכון is equal to a large הלוואה and all the גמרא says in בבא מציעא is the whole משכון is owned even if it is more than the הלוואה.

There are still many details to work out. But even before I can get to the details, I need to get the idea. Is what we are saying is the משכון is owned completely even if more than the הלוואה and that even if it is small it is equal to the whole הלוואה. If so these two concepts do seem contradictory prima facie.

Then the גמרא concludes not like שמואל in שבועות.  However תוספות says the law is like  שמואל. In שבועות the גמרא says the משכון is only equal to its own monetary value and that is the amount that it is considered to be against the הלוואה. That is the conclusion of the גמרא, whether he says so explicitly or not,  and whether the משכון was taken at the time of the הלוואה or not. See the רי''ף. So this גמרא in שבועות seems not like the one in בבא מציעא.

 The גמרא in בבא מציעא says we consider what has been out of the document of the הלוואה as if it was written. That is how תוספות explains the סוגיא there. So the גמרא there certainly makes no difference if something was written and explained openly or not. This is already entirely against the גמרא in Shavuot where the גמרא resolves the contradiction between the משנה and שמואל  by says one is where it was said openly the משכון is against the loan and the other is where this was not stated. And the גמרא never goes against this there. It just says no one holds from שמואל but they do not ever modify the opinion of שמואל.  In fact, תוספות however says in fact the law is like שמואל but this would not make any difference in our סוגיא because our סוגיא is just the opposite case of שמואל. If שמואל is when he explained his meaning openly then our סוגיא is when he did not.
The מהרש''א answers this question because he explains this סוגיא in בבא מציעא to mean that it in fact has to be written.




It is also possible that שמואל means the משכון is considered equal to the loan even when the monetary value of the משכון is more than the הלוואה, not just when it is less. In fact this might be best because then the two גמרות might be  holding that we do not hold by שמואל in this case and that we always look only at the monetary value of the משכון.

Another answer might be that that law is like שמואל and that שמואל said his law only when פרושי מפרש. Then these two גמרות in שבועות and בבא מציעא would come out equal. that is like תוספות in fact says in שבועות and this would be if we go like the גרסה of רבינו חננאל and we understand the גמרא in בבא מציעא like the מהרש''א.





Appendix: The גמרא in שבועות. The משנה says the משכון is against the הלוואה only according to its own monetary worth. The גמרא asks this seems not like שמואל who says the pledge is considered equal to the whole הלוואה. The גמרא answers  שמואל is when he said so explicitly and the משנה is when he did not. Let's say the opinion of שמואל is the subject of an argument between two תנאים.  The ברייתא  says רבי אליעזר says if the lender lost the pledge he takes an oath that it was by accident and he collects the whole הלוואה. Then רבי עקיבא says: "The borrower can say 'Why did I give  a משכון in the first place but to be for the הלוואה? You lost the משכון, you lost the הלוואה.'"
The גמרא says that neither רבי אליעזר nor רבי עקיבא hold from שמואל and rather they disagree about the law of רבי יצחק. The גמרא says רבי יצחק said the מלווה owns the משכון. Then the גמרא pushes that off and says רבי יצחק was talking about a case when the משכון was taken not at the time of the הלוואה and in that case everyone agrees with רבי יצחק. Rather their argument is when the משכון was taken at the time of the הלוואה and it is parallel to the argument between רבה and רב יוסף. The argument is this. רבה said a the finder of a אבידה has the category of a שומר חינם. Then רב יוסף said a שומר שכר. The גמרא says even then if the מלווה does not need the משכון there is no disagreement. Rather the case is when the מלווה needs to use the משכון.

The גמרא in בבא מציעא says רבי יהושע בן קרחה holds  דורשין לשון הדיוט. That means that we look at the exact language of the document. So when he writes כל תשלומתא  דאית לך כל קבל דיכי that means the משכון is considered to be for the whole הלוואה even if the משכון is not worth much. The גמרא asks but what if he did not write that? Then he would not own the whole משכון? But that contradicts רבי יוחנן who said the מלווה can take the whole משכון from the orphans. So he owns it even when he did not write anything. Rather רבי יהושע בן קרחה meant that if the משכון goes down in value and the loan is defaulted on, then we go after other property in order that the whole הלוואה should be paid back.




In any case one difficulty I forgot to mention is the basic contradiction: In שבועות the whole difference between שמואל and רבי עקיבא and רבי אליעזר is whether he explained openly that the pledge is considered equal to the loan or not. And in בבא מציעא this difference is completely erased by the idea we considered it written even if it has not been written. The answer might be that explaining the difference is not the same as writing a document. And in fact the Gemara says in Shavuot that there is no argument between רבי עקיבא and Rabbi Eliezer when he has written a document. That means רבי אליעזר then agrees with רבי עקיבא but not שמואל. So we still seem to have  a problem. This question in fact answered by the Maharsha who says that for our סוגיא in בבא מציעא תוספות is understanding דורש לשון הדיוט differently than he did before hand. In the סוגיא of רבי יהושע בן קרחה he explains it to mean we are exacting in saying the words mean exactly what their simple explanation is an if it is not written then we say it is not written.

I wanted to suggest the importance of learning in a Lithuanian kind of yeshiva. The main reason is that Torah is something that one needs to learn from people that know it well. It is kind of like in Middle Ages when you had apprentices  that needed to learn the ins and outs of some kind of skill over a very long period before they could be accepted as members of the guild or "Masters."  Torah is very much like that. The difference is it has its own kind of rules. Just like in the Middle Ages the rules of one guild did not apply to another. So in Torah there is no reason for the arena to be a free for all in which anyone who puts on the right kind of clothing is considered learned. My suggestion is to accept at legitimate only those who have put in the work; and the frauds that present themselves as experts to dispose of.

I think there are a few good yeshivas around especially in NY. Chaim Berlin, Torah VeDaat, Mir. In Israel it is harder to spot a real yeshiva and tell the difference between it and the phonies. The reason is money got mixed into the system. No you can't tell in Israel who is learning because they love Torah and who is doing it because it is good business. It is not just hard to tell. It is nearly impossible.
The ones that you can be sure of are Ponovitch, and Brisk.

Songs to the God of Israel in mp3 and midi.

n30 [n30 in midi] k16 [k16 in midi] n31  [n31 in midi] n33 [n33 in midi] n35  [n35 in midi] n36 [n36 in midi]  n38  [n38 in midi] n39 [n39 in midi] n40 [n40 in midi] n41 [n41 in midi] [I think n31 and n33 are different even though they start with the same theme] n44 [n44 in midi] n47 [n47 in midi] n5 [n5 in midi] n51[n51 in midi] n52 [n52 in midi] n53 [edited][n53 in midi]  g2 [g2 in midi] q91 [q91in midi] p129 [p129 in midi]  p120 in mp3[p120 in midi]

People that are called tzadikim have powers from the Sitra Achra

The tzadik (righteous person) is a theme that is mentioned by the Gra  on the verse "and a river came out of Eden [Genesis 2] and was divided into four main rivers" the Gra says just two words '' זו הצדיק'' ''this is the tzadik'' The the Gra is simply drawing on the Ari. The basic idea is what we normally call the sepherah of foundation he is calling the tzadik since it is the sepherah that Joseph ben Yaakov became connected with.

Closeness to a true tzadik is important. The problem is this gets mixed up with the point of the Torah which is to serve God.

There is positive benefit one can gain by being connected with a true tzadik.
The opposite side of this is the damage one can incur by being close to a phony tzadik or one who seems to be righteous, but gets his powers from the sitra achra (the dark side).


 The two major problems with the concept of the tzadik is when people have a true tzadik, they can go overboard and cross the line into making him an object of worship. The other problem is when people have imagined they have found the real thing, but are not aware they have found a person who knows how to play the part.
The problems are so great in this area that I recommend not going to people that are called tzadikim. They have powers from the Sitra Achra {the Dark Side}. The Gra certainly saw this. 

The world of strict Judaism seems to have a problem with false messiahs. The way this works is they use consciousness traps.

The world of strict Judaism seems to have a problem with false messiahs. Sometimes they admit to following some false messiah and sometimes they do not admit that that is what they believe. This started mainly at the time of the Shatz (Shabatai Tzvi).  After he converted to Islam  his followers continued believing in him but they would deny this publicly. They would even print books against the Shatz and in private be holding meetings in his name.. This goes on today also except the name of the false messiah is changed.  This usually goes way beyond believing in some false messiah. It is almost always a form of worship towards that false messiah. And it would not be so bad except that the there is usually some kind of deeper hidden uncleanliness inside these false messiahs. This is frustrating for me to see this and be powerless to stop it. Rav Shach tried and failed. The Gra tried and failed.  What can I do?

My basic approach to this is simply to try to learn and keep Torah, but when I see this evil spreading rapidly throughout Judaism I am getting worried.

The way this works is they use consciousness traps. That it they have nice slogans and present some kind of polished public picture that makes one think they are all about good and worthy goals. Or the false messiah is given miracles from the Dark Side so he seems to be from the side of holiness. He gives good advice a few times. And  once one has decided  follow this powerful figure, then he is given some kind of directive that he ought to know is from the Dark Side. He still has free will but he chooses the darkness because of the miracles he has already seen from the false messiah.


The best way I think to avoid these problems is by avoiding cults around false messiahs. I may not be the one to organize this, but it would be  a good idea to start an anti false messiah movement.

An idea in Quantum Field Theory

It is probably just a ridiculous suggestion but here goes anyway. I am wondering if we start with Emmy Noether's theorem and put groups of fractional symmetry in the Lagrangian of QFT (Quantum Field Theory). I mean to say I have been fascinated by the idea of fractional derivatives and higher order symmetries for  awhile. So we have from Noether that for every symmetry you can put into the Lagrangian a conservation law why not just postulate symmetries and thus higher conservation laws up to any order?  What I am thinking of is not the same as translational symmetry or fractional charges like quarks.

This might sound like a ridiculous suggestion but sometimes this kind of idea gives results. Originally it was Leibniz himself who thought of fractional derivatives but he did not think the results would interesting so he did not pursue the idea. It turned out there are some interesting results. The same goes for higher orders of acceleration. The third order came up in [I forget where maybe Lorenz Abraham's theorem. I can't recall off hand.]

Further I would like to suggest the order of symmetry will have some proportionality constant  with the number of dimensions.


I really would not say anything but it is that sometimes some idea pops into my head that even to me sounds silly and then after a few years I find out that it really was a good idea.

Dr. Warren Siegel answered this:

"I'm not sure what symmetries you're thinking of, but in general if you impose too much symmetry you find that only a free theory can satisfy it."

And as for the fractional derivative he answered this:

"If by fractional derivative you mean some arbitrary noninteger power of the differential operator, the result is nonlocal (does not depend on just infinitesimally nearby points).  Locality is a basic physical property that field theory requires.  It follows from special relativity & causality."


What I am thinking is that according to the number of dimensions you have got, you have the same number of conservation laws. So for our little world we have conservation of energy and mass, electric charge, etc. In string theory we get some crumbled up dimensions for the normal 26. So what I would like to find are groups to put into the Lagrangian that will correspond to each conservation law for a different quantity. I still need to think about what kinds of groups I am looking for. But the most obvious would be those 26 simple groups I was reading about when I was studying group theory, [i.e., sporadic groups].

Dr Siegel answered to me:

"If you compactify some dimensions into a symmetric space, you'll get the symmetry of that space.

E.g., if you compactify some extra N dimensions into a submicroscopic sphere, you'll get the rotational group for those N dimensions, i.e., the orthogonal group O(N+1).

It will appear as an "internal" symmetry with respect to the uncompactified dimensions (i.e., not affecting them directly)."

So clearly I need to do some more learning and thinking. What Dr Siegel was saying I think was that all I had gotten to was the regular Orthogonal groups.

[What I am trying to do here is to put any (or all) of the sporadic groups into the Lagrangian. That is all. Nothing more. But by doing so I am hoping to get a new conservation law for each group. Then I am hoping that each law will show up in one of the crunched up dimensions of String Theory.]

Dr Siegel is in at SUNY (State University of NY) at Stony Brook,  and at the time  I wrote this I was trying to learn his book Fields.

Terrorism is in general a method of political control. It started with the Reign of Terror in France. It was used by the Bolsheviks  as a means to establish their authority. The basic idea was explained by Trotsky: if there is a reason for the arrests in the middle of the night and the sending of millions to die in the Gulags, then it is not terror. No one is scared if there are reasons. Thus we have Stalin using this idea to control the USSR. He would send orders to many cities in the USSR ordering the local KGB to arrest a certain number of people, to execute another number of people, to jail such and such a number and to send to the Gulag such and such a sum. So there was no reason for the arrests except simply to fill a quota.
Another example is in Israel where Muslims are blowing up shooting and murdering Jews pretty much on a random basis. There is never any particular reason for it except as a means of political protest. I used walk down Jaffa street every day to go the the Western Wall and one day I changed by usually routine  and it just so happened that the day I changed my route and the very time I usually was on Jaffa some Arab had gotten hold of  a sub-machine Gun and mowed down the Jews walking on the opposite side-of the street.[That was the right hand side of the street when you are walking to the Western Wall.]

That is different than taking over an empty Federal building until some grievances are solved.

Talking with God as one talks with his or her's closest friend

Talking with God as one talks with his or her's closest friend. I am sure a lot of people do this without being told. Once they hear from their parents about God being the creator of everything and that he is compassionate and he desires our being moral human beings it seems natural to automatically go to him directly to ask for guidance and help.

the best time I found for this is before going to sleep at night. but there were people that emphasized doing this more often.  We see King David clearly did this when he was in trouble and also he spent time thanking God. There was a Brother Lawrence in France who did this and wrote a bit about it also in a book called The Presence of God.

The best  idea is to go on a hike for an entire day and spend the whole day talking with God. This idea got to me and I tried doing this for some time when I first got to Israel. But sadly I did not keep up the practice. Still it seems like  a great idea and when on occasion I do this I feel I get answers.

When I was growing up in Beverly Hills we lived on the north side and there was a kind of forest in the area. And I used to do this kind of thing from time to time. There was a kind of  opening in a small groups of trees right near the main street that went up Coldwater Canyon where we lived and I used to go there and say prayers from the Jewish Prayer book and also talk to God in my own way. It is hard to do this in a big city but even at the Mir in NY I managed to find a spot where I could go and say prayers privately to God.  It is best to find a authentic Litvak Yeshiva like Ponovitch or Brisk. Private prayer should be private.

Idea in Talmud concerning the sugia in bava metzia page 104

 In בבא מציעא דף ק''ד we have this idea of דורשין לשון הדיוט. What does that mean there? The גמרא there understands this to mean we can't take a  משכון that has a larger value than the הלוואה itself. Why not? It seems to me the reason is we take the משכון out of the category of being a משכון to being bought. But that does not seem to fit the גמרא in שבועות in which the משכון if taken not at the time of הלוואה is automatically bought and owned. It is rather the משכון taken at the time of the הלוואה that רבי אליעזר and רבי עקיבא disagree about and we go by רבי עקיבא that he is considered a שומר שכר. And the רי''ף says in all cases he is a שומר שכר. So דורשין לשון הדיוט  seems to be ambiguous. You could say it means we take even the הלוואה taken at the time of the הלוואה and consider it owned and not just as a משכון. I mean that even רבי עקיבא and רבי אליעזר would agree that because of דורשין that it too would be considered bought and owned until the לווה pays back the חוב. The other way to understand this is to say that דורשין לשון הדיוט tells us to take what was a normal משכון which is already  considered bought and owned and make it into a משכון that the מלווה is just a שומר שכר for. This last way  fits the רי''ף in שבועות. But it does not fit the גמרא in בבא מציעא

oregon You can read this whole article to get the whole picture, but as far as I can see there is nothing the federal government in Washington DC touches that it does not ruin. I am 100% behind the ranchers.

The terrible ways the government has treated the ranchers is not news to me. I am all too well familiar with the corrupt hevy hand of government agencies.

There are plenty of abuses of power to see here. You can see that federal government had no problem taking over private land by destroying it by criminal actions against the bill of rights. And of course the attorney general's office will nor prosecute  the  FWS because it is  just as much a criminal organization.

I have zero sympathy for the Federal government in this case. They are point blank wrong about sentencing men to prison for a grass fire, for their criminal takeover of ranchers property against the Bill of Rights. Half of Oregon was taken over by the Fedral government by "Zakaz communist decree" methods. They simply declared that "we own it." and what every ranchers did not want to sell the government redirected rivers to flood the property of the ranchers.

Ideas in Bava Metzia

Ideas in Talmud Updated  Ideas in Bava Metzia Updated

I added some ideas in the first one and changed some things in the second.

I wish I could learn Torah but these two little booklets are about the best I can come up with. I hope you enjoy them. If you can you should find Rav Shach's Avi Ezri which is the best book on Talmud to be published in last hundred years. It is easy to understand and has amazing depth and has a tremendous feeling to it.

The area  I tried to deal with anew is in Bava Metzia page 104 and in Shavuot 44.


I updated the Ideas in Bava Metzia for  a spelling error: I hate to admit it but I wrote שני פעמים which needed to be changed to פעמיים.

Shavuot

In the Talmud in Shavuot [page 44a]

 The question is that the Gemara concludes like Rav  Joseph and that is how the Rambam decides. The question is what does the Rambam do with the Gemara in Bava Metzia in which Rav Nachman says about a משכון [collateral for  a loan] that even though one can use it he is not liable in אונסים [armed robbers].

I also wanted to point out why the Rif in our Gemara in Shavuot says the law straightforwards that the lender that loses the pledge is like a שומר שכר paid guard, and in a case of armed robbers, he loses only the amount of the collateral not the whole loan. The reason is quite elegant. It comes out of the steady progression of the Gemara itself to reach that point.
The Mishna says in an argument about a case when the pledge was lost  that the lender loses only the amount the pledge was worth. Shmuel said he loses the whole loan. [he was talking about when the borrower said so openly.] R Eliezer says the lender does not lose anything and R Akiva says he loses the loan. If the pledge is worth the entire amount then why would R Eliezer disagree? So everyone disagrees with Shmuel. Their argument is about R. Isaac that the lender owns the pledge. But if it was taken not at the time of the loan everyone agrees with R Isaac. So it is at the time of the loan and the disagreement is if a guard of a lost object is considered to be paid or not. But that is only if he needs to pledge. If you follow the logic of the Gemara here you can see why the Rif (Isaac Alfasi) says that nothing matters the lender that loses the pledge loses only the amount it was worth. I can't go into it this minute but by following the logic of the Talmud you can see how he was led to this conclusion step by step.

The key is to remember that if we don't hold by Shmuel then it does not matter if the borrower said it is against the  loan or not. And if it is at the time of the loan of not also makes no difference since we go by R Akiva against R Eliezer. And even if the lender needs the pledge we still consider he is doing a mitzvah and so gets the coin of Rav Joseph and so is  a שומר שכר

There is one question I have even though I have not even gotten to learn Tosphot properly yet. The Rif does as I say take all the divisions and throws them out, and most of this you can see in the Gemara itself. The last division though I find difficult. If they all hold by R. Isaac that the pledge is owned when it was taken not at the time of the loan, and their argument is at the time of the loan and it goes by the debate between Raba and Rav Joseph, then there is a difference! A pledge taken not at the time of the loan  is owned, and for a pledge taken at the time of the loan, the lender is only a שומר שכר [paid guard]. So why does the Rif say for a pledge taken even not at the time of the loan he is a שומר שכר. He should say if taken not at time of loan he owns it and if taken at time of loan he is a paid guard.

From what I can tell Rashi answers this question in Bava Metzia. [That is he explains the Gemara there in a way that can help us understand the Rif in Shavuot--that is we can say perhaps the Rif was learning like Rashi.] He says on pg 84 that the pledge is owned completely only until the loan is paid. He says openly that what Rabbi Isaac means is that the lender is not a paid nor unpaid guard. He is an owner. But the ownership only exists until the second the borrower comes to pay back the loan. So this is not what I wrote in my ideas in Bava Metzia and I am sad to say I have to go back and correct my mistake. I was thinking around page that the lender owns the object completely.

Does this help us? Maybe. But still it looks like we still end up that for the pledge taken not at the time of the loan he is more than a paid guard--he owns it and thus is liable even in a case it was stolen by force. That is  a case the paid guard would not have to  pay for. So we still are in a mess concerning the Rif.

 That is to him when the pledge was taken not at the time of the loan the lender is a paid guard. This seems not like Rabbi Isaac. The only thing I can think might help is the Gemara in Bava Metzia 104 about דורשין לשון הדיוט that is he would own it but the language of the document brings him down one notch.  Because in Shavuot 43b the whole argument of R Akiva and R Eliezer does not apply to when there is a document. That is because everyone agrees then he is a paid guard.
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 שבועות מ''ד ע''א
 The question is that the גמרא concludes like רב יוסף and that is how the רמב''ם decides. The question is what does the רמב''ם do with the גמרא in בבא מציעא in which רב נחמן says about a משכון  that even though one can use it he is not liable in אונסים.

I also wanted to point out why the רי''ף in our גמרא in שבועות says the law that the lender that loses the משכון is like a שומר שכר paid guard, and in a case of armed robbers, he loses only the amount of the משכון, not the whole loan. The reason is quite elegant. It comes out of the steady progression of the גמרא itself to reach that point.

The משנה says in an argument about a case when the משכון was lost  that the מלווה loses only the amount the משכון was worth. שמואל said he loses the whole loan. He was talking about when the לווה said so openly. רבי אליעזר says the מלווה does not lose anything and רבי עקיבא says he loses the loan. If the משכון is worth the entire amount, then why would רבי אליעזר disagree? So everyone disagrees with שמואל. Their argument is about רבי יצחק that the מלווה owns the משכון. But if it was taken not at the time of the loan everyone agrees with רבי יצחק. So it is at the time of the loan and the disagreement is if a שומר of a lost object is considered to be paid or not. But that is only if he needs to משכון. If you follow the logic of the גמרא here you can see why the רי''ף  says that nothing matters the מלווה that loses the משכון loses only the amount it was worth.
The key is to remember that if we don't hold by שמואל then it does not matter if the borrower פירש  it is against the  הלוואה or not. And if it is at the time of the הלוואה or not also makes no difference since we go by רבי עקיבא against רבי אליעזר. And even if the מלווה needs the pledge we still consider he is doing a מצווה and so gets the פרוטה of רב יוסף and so is  a שומר שכר


 The רי''ף does as I say take all the divisions and throws them out, and most of this you can see in the גמרא itself. The last division though I find difficult. If they all hold by רבי יצחק that the משכון is owned when it was taken not at the time of the הלוואה, and their argument is at the time of the loan and it goes by the debate between רבה and רב יוסף, then there is a difference! A משכון taken not at the time of the loan  is owned, and for a משכון taken at the time of the הלוואה, the מלווה is only a שומר שכר . So why does the רי''ף say for a משכון taken even not at the time of the loan he is a שומר שכר. He should say if taken not at time of הלוואה he owns it, and if taken at time of loan he is a שומר שכר.

Maybe רש''י answers this question in בבא מציעא. That is he explains the גמרא there in a way that can help us understand the רי''ף in שבועות. That is we can say perhaps the רי''ף was learning like רש''י. He says on דף 84 that the משכון is owned completely only until the הלוואה is paid. He says openly that what רבי יצחק means is that the מלווה is not a שומר שכר nor שומר חינם. He is an owner. But the ownership only exists until the second the לווה comes to pay back the הלוואה.


Does this help us? Maybe. But still it looks like we still end up that for the משכון taken not at the time of the loan he is more than a שומר שכר. He owns it and thus is liable even in a case it was stolen by force. That is  a case the שומר שכר would not have to  pay for. So we still are in a mess concerning the רי''ף.



 That is to him when the משכון was taken not at the time of the loan the lender is a paid guard. This seems not like רבי יצחק. The only thing I can think might help is the גמרא in בבא מציעא  ק''ד about דורשין לשון הדיוט that is he would own it but the language of the document brings him down one notch.  Because in שבועות מג ע''ב the whole argument of רבי עקיבא and רבי אליעזר does not apply to when there is a document. That is because everyone agrees then he is a paid guard.
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שבועות מ''ד ע''א השאלה היא שהגמרא מסכמת כמו רב יוסף וכך הרמב''ם מחליט. השאלה היא מה עושה הרמב''ם עם הגמרא בבא מציעא שרב נחמן אומר על משכון כי למרות שניתן להשתמש בו הוא אינו אחראי באונסים. אני גם רוצה לציין מדוע הרי''ף   על הגמרא בשבועות אומר החוק כי המלווה שמאבד משכון הוא כמו שומר שכר, ובמקרה של שודדים חמושים, הוא מאבד רק את הסכום של המשכון, לא כל ההלוואה. הסיבה לכך היא די אלגנטית. הוא יוצא מההתקדמות יציבה של הגמרא עצמה.  המשנה אומרת בויכוח על מקרה שבו המשכון אבד והמלווה מאבד רק את הסכום שהמשכון היה שווה. שמואל אמר שהוא מאבד את כל ההלוואה. הוא מדבר  כשהלווה אמר זאת בגלוי. רבי אליעזר אומר מלווה לא מאבד שום דבר. ורבי עקיבא אומר שהוא מאבד את ההלוואה. אם המשכון שווה את כל הסכום, אז למה רבי אליעזר אינו מסכים? אז כולם מסכים עם שמואל. הטענות שלהם הן  בדיון של רבי יצחק שלמלווה יש בעלות מלאה במשכון. אבל אם המשכון לא נלקח בזמן ההלוואה כולם מסכים עם רבי יצחק. אז זה בזמן ההלוואה והמחלוקת היא אם שומר על אבידה שאיבד אותה נחשב שומר חנם או שומר שכר. אבל זה רק אם הוא צריך את המשכון.  כאן אתה יכול לראות למה הרי''ף אומר  שמלווה שמאבד את המשכון מאבד רק את הסכום שזה היה שווה. המפתח הוא לזכור שאם אנחנו לא מחזיקים עם שמואל, אז זה לא משנה אם הלווה פרש שזה נגד ההלוואה או לא. ואם זה בעת ההלוואה או לא גם לא משנה מאחר שאנחנו הולכים על לפי רבי עקיבא נגד רבי אליעזר. וגם אם מלווה צריך המשכון אנחנו עדיין רואים שהוא עושה מצווה וכך מקבל פרוטה של רב יוסף וכך הוא שומר שכר.  רי''ף עושה מה שאני אומר לקחת את כל חילוקים וזורק אותם, וזה אתה יכול לראות בגמרא עצמה. אבל את החלוקה האחרונה אני מוצא קשה. אם כל מה שהם מחזיקים ברבי יצחק שהמשכון נמצא בבעלות כאשר הוא נלקח לא בזמן ההלוואה, והטענה שלהם היא שמצב שהמשכון נלקח בעת ההלוואה וזה תלוי בוויכוח בין רבה ורב יוסף, אז יש הֶבדֵל! משכון שנלקח לא בזמן של ההלוואה הינו בבעלות המלווה, ומשכון שנלקח בזמן של ההלוואה, המלווה הוא רק שומר שכר. אז למה הרי''ף אומר משכון שנלקח אפילו לא בזמן של ההלוואה הוא שומר שכר. הוא צריך לומר אם נלקח לא בזמן של ההלוואה הוא בבעלותו של המלווה, ואם נלקח בזמן של הלוואה הוא שומר שכר. אולי רש''י עוזר על שאלה זו בבא מציעא.  הוא מסביר גמרא שם באופן שיכול לעזור לנו להבין את רי''ף בשבועות.  אולי הרי''ף למד כמו רש''י. לדבריו, בדף פ''ד המשכון נמצא בבעלות המלווה לחלוטין רק עד ההלוואה משולמת. הוא אומר בגלוי כי מה שרבי יצחק פירש שהמלווה אינו שומר שכר ולא שומר חינם, הוא בעל. אבל הבעלות קיימת רק עד השניה שהלווה מגיע כדי להחזיר את ההלוואה. האם זה יעזור לנו? אולי. אבל עדיין זה נראה קשה  שעדיין בסופו של דבר המשכון נלקח לא בזמן של ההלוואה והמלווה יותר משומר שכר. הוא מחזיק אותה ובכך עלול גם במקרה שזה נגנב בכוח. זה מקרה ששומר שכר לא יצטרך לשלם עבור זה. אז אנחנו עדיין נמצאים צריך עיון בנוגע לרי''ף.


 כלומר להרי''ף כאשר המשכון נלקח לא בזמן של ההלוואה המלווה הוא שומר שכר. זה נראה לא כמו רבי יצחק. הדבר היחיד שאני יכול לחשוב עשוי לעזור הוא הגמרא בבא מציעא ק''ד על דורשין לשון ההדיוט שהוא היה בבעלותו, אבל השפה של המסמך מורידה אותו החריץ אחד. כי בשבועות מ''ג ע''ב כל הטיעון של הרבי עקיבא ורבי אליעזר אינו חל על כאשר יש מסמך. זאת משום שכולם מסכים שאז הוא שומר שכר.

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English




What I wanted to add is this. In Bava Metzia page 104 we have this idea of דורשין לשון הדיוט. What does that mean there? The Gemara there understands this to mean we can't take a pledge that has a larger value than the loan itself. Why not? It seems to me the reason is we take the pledge out of the category of being a pledge to being bought. But that does not seem to fit the Gemara in Shavuot in which the pledge if taken not at the time of loan is automatically bought and owned. It is rather the pledge taken at the time of the loan that Rabbi Eliezer and Rabbi Akiva disagree about and we go by Rabbi Akiva that he is considered a paid guard. And the Rif says in all cases he is a paid guard. So דורשין לשון הדיוט  seems to be ambiguous. You could say it means we take even the loan taken at the time of the loan and consider it owned and not just as a pledge. I mean that even Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Eliezer would agree that because of דורשין that it too would be considered bought and owned until the lender pays back the loan. The other way to understand this is to say that דורשין לשון הדיוט tells us to take what was a normal pledge which is already  considered bought and owned and make it into a pledge that the lender is just a paid guard for. This last way  fits the Rif in Shavuot. But it does not fit the Gemara in Bava Metzia

English and Hebrew

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What I wanted to add is this. In בבא מציעא דף ק''ד we have this idea of דורשין לשון הדיוט. What does that mean there? The גמרא there understands this to mean we can't take a  משכון that has a larger value than the הלוואה itself. Why not? It seems to me the reason is we take the משכון out of the category of being a משכון to being bought. But that does not seem to fit the גמרא in שבועות in which the משכון if taken not at the time of הלוואה is automatically bought and owned. It is rather the משכון taken at the time of the הלוואה that רבי אליעזר and רבי עקיבא disagree about and we go by רבי עקיבא that he is considered a שומר שכר. And the רי''ף says in all cases he is a שומר שכר. So דורשין לשון הדיוט  seems to be ambiguous. You could say it means we take even the הלוואה taken at the time of the הלוואה and consider it owned and not just as a משכון. I mean that even רבי עקיבא and רבי אליעזר would agree that because of דורשין that it too would be considered bought and owned until the לווה pays back the חוב. The other way to understand this is to say that דורשין לשון הדיוט tells us to take what was a normal משכון which is already  considered bought and owned and make it into a משכון that the מלווה is just a שומר שכר for. This last way  fits the רי''ף in שבועות. But it does not fit the גמרא in בבא מציעא

If Germany does not want more jihad, it should probably not invite jihadists in.

jihad in Germany  Germany is simple. People get into certain habits of thought and then continue with them even after it becomes clear that they have crossed some line. It is the way people are. Germany has wanted to be the good Samaritan for decades by letting in people in times of need. And that is praiseworthy. But at what point does this become imprudent?

If Germany does not want more jihad, it should probably not invite jihadists in.  I admit however that I do not understand why they let it so many jihadists already. There must be something I am not seeing here.

How to form a government has been a question for a long time. People did not always live in dictatorships. The founding fathers of the USA were aware of the problems of democracy. Their way of solving the problems of democracy was by setting the powers of government one against the other. This had been in Europe during the Middle Ages the way society was operating with  the Secular power opposite the power of the church. This had been a effective method for Jewish people also.  There was even in the Talmud, a secular head and a religious leader.[ריש גלותא the head of the exiles was the secular leader in Babylonia.] This aspect of balance of powers is not effective in the USA today when all government powers are have joined with the  executive branch to effectively subjugate and silence the American people.

Herodotus brings down that Darius [the king that caused the Second Temple to be built] argued against democracy because the wicked form alliances while the good hard working people remain unconnected  individuals. This critique is certainly true in the USA. The Left wing anti God Democrats are organized and dynamic. All their energy and religious fervor goes into trying to destroy God. No wonder they love Islam and its anti God (Allah).

The right wing that is for Judeo-Christian values is not just disorganized, but there is no fervor or emotional commitment towards politics.

Dihydrogen Monoxide can cause severe burns and even death. Should it be banned? [This was an  question in a survey. 30% of those asked answered yes. ]  [Water can be heated and cause severe burns. People can drown in it also.] People can be dumb. So rule of the people has limitations. Democracy has limitations, and that is the reason the Constitution was made--to guard against these kinds of problems. So the best solution is to keep and safeguard the Constitution of the USA.  

Yoke of Torah

The whole idea of the yoke of Torah in the way I understand it is if one accepts it then other kinds of problems do not come to one. That is I think the actual idea of the Chapters of the Fathers: "From one who accepts on himself the yoke of Torah, there is removed the yoke of government and work."

That is [in the way I understand it] sometimes people have problems that stem from work or the government. And they try to solve these problems in different ways that are related to the problem at hand. But what is being suggested here in the Mishna is that there is a better approach to solving one's problems. That is to accept the yoke of Torah.

I am not saying I know how to accomplish this in a practical sense.
But this idea resonates with me from another thing I learned once when I was at the Mir in NY.
When I was there they had a "Musar Seder"--a set time for learning books on ethics. And it was in one of those books that I saw quoted a Gemara in Shabat "there are no troubles without sin."
The actual Gemara there in tractate Shabat has an argument if there is death without sin and if there are problems without sin. I forget the whole discussion, but the conclusion of the Gemara is, "There is death without sin, but there are no problems without sin."

This statement made a profound effect on me. Ever since I saw that I have assumed as a basic premise that any problem I am going through is always my own fault because of some character flaw in me.

Putting this all together is this: when I go through problems like I am today, one thing I can do is seek a direct solution. But sometimes no direct solution presents itself- because that is the nature of things that I and most other people go through. We find ourselves in some kind of problem that if we turn right we make things worse, -and if we turn left, we make them doubly worse. What to do in such a case, I think at least for myself, is to begin to accept the yoke of Torah.

And this is not just in theory. In fact there was a period of my life that things were going well and it just so happens --perhaps not by coincidence that that was a period that I was in fact learning and keeping the Torah as well as humanly possible according to my own level at the time.

That is the end of this essay, but just for some background to explain what this means: Yoke of Torah mainly means to be learning Torah and keeping it. That is the basic idea but how this applies to each person in practice is a very hard question for me. The most basic starting place is the Ten Commandments. Next step is the basic works of Ethics that are well known: Duties of the Heart, Paths of the Righteous, etc. That is the basic Musar collection.

One thing you see in books of Musar is the main thing the Torah is strict about is obligations between man and his fellow man. So when I see things going wrong in my life my first reaction is to look and see what I am doing wrong in my interactions with people. Have I said a lie? Have I taken something that does not belong to me? Are there things I should have done to help someone in need that I did not do? These are the types of questions I ask myself.

Reb Yaakov Abuchatzeira and his more well known grandson Bava Sali

Reb Yaakov Abuchatzeira  and his more well known grandson Bava Sali pretty well defined by their lives the basic approach of Torah. That is they were themselves fasting a lot and spending all their  days in Torah study. But they were not expecting the people in their cities to be doing the same. That is they were expecting nothing more or less than keeping the Torah in the most simple basic way possible without adding or subtracting any doctrines of beliefs or tikunim.  It is hard to explain the simplicity of their way when in the modern world often people pick up on some basic doctrine or practice to emphasize and forget everything else.
In Morocco every city had one חכם-wise man that was the religious leader and there the religious leader was usually in fact a פרוש  a person that  separated himself from this world and spent his time in learning and prayer and fasting.

I discovered myself the existence of Bava Sali a drop too late. But I did get to know his family to some extent. This family is still populated by very special individuals. And if you have one nearby I recommend going to any one of them and getting a blessing. It is worth the time and effort even if you do not see instant results.

Litvak {Lithuanian} yeshivas are important

The main reason that Litvak {Lithuanian} yeshivas are important is to improve character. They  are as far as intention goes doing the same thing that boy scouts were supposed to be doing before they fell into the dark side. That is it they are not just for learning Torah. This in part is connected with learning Musar. But that is not all it is. It is because there is an awareness that people are not automatically good. They need to be taught good character.

It occurred to me that there is a whole list of problems that are removed from one when he or she accepts the yoke of Torah

כל המקבל על עצמו עול תורה מעבירים ממנו עול מלכות ועול דרך ארץ from anyone who accepts on himself the yoke of Torah there is taken the yoke of the government and the yoke of the way of the world.

It occurred to me that this includes a whole list of problems that are removed from one when he or she accepts the yoke of Torah. And thinking about my divided thoughts about what course of action to take in my very bad situation would be included in the list.
But how does one go about ''accepting the yoke of Torah'' seems like a very difficult question. Most yeshivas that I am aware of do not let in people after the age of 24. So in any case, I would have to figure out how to increase my own learning time of Talmud. Plus there are the basic laws of the Torah related to being married. That clearly is not an area dependent on myself alone.
So I decided even this very simple thing--accepting the yoke of Torah requires prayer to merit to do it.

[The way yeshivas are run is problematic, but that reflects on the nature of people, not the nature of Torah. It takes a special kind of person to run a yeshiva in a kosher way. But that is not my problem. My problem is regardless of how any institutions are run, how can I accept the yoke of Torah?]

The only kind of yeshiva that is directed towards character improvement are Lithuanian types where Musar is learned. The other types have the opposite effect.


The truth be told even at yeshiva age this is not an easy question. Does accepting the yoke of Torah mean only learning Torah and forgetting about learning a vocation? Even though I decided to concentrate on Torah alone it seems to me today that learning a vocation is a part of accepting the yoke of Torah.

Next besides learning Torah is how to keep the Torah. This is even more confusing than the first question. I could say over my basic approach to halacha but that might not be much help for some people. My own approach to halacha is to learn the subject in the Talmud itself.

Isaac Luria

In the Torah every ''vav''in front of a verb is a ואו מהפך. It turns the tense from future to past and visa versa. This usage stopped by the time psalms and Ecclesiastes were written.  The reason modern Hebrew does not use the reversing vav is because it goes by later sources. That is they assume the Torah was written in a special way because it was given by inspiration from God, and does not tell us about the normal usage.
So what I think is the Torah means it both ways. Everything that did happen will happen. So when it says ויאמר אלהים יהי אור ויהי אור it means just like the literal meaning-- and God will say let there be light.  And so on for the whole Torah. When it says ייוצא השם ישראל ממצרים It means in the future God will save Israel from every troubling  times.

 What I am getting at is the idea that you have in the Isaiah "את השמים החדשים ואת הארץ החדשה אשר אני עושה the new heavens and the new earth that I am making."  and the idea that Israel goes through lots of periods of trouble. and you see in the book of Judges that God often sends some kind of person to help. So I think that these kinds of events in the Torah were not one time types of things but rather things that will continue to be repeated.

If you read Isaac Luria  this kind of idea might resonate a little more with you. It is kind of mystical. I don't mean that I am expecting a new earth. Rather a kind of spiritual light  and understanding that I think will come.

inspiration in Torah.

I found a lot of life and inspiration  in Torah. The way I see Torah is it teaches how to connect to the Life and the Good. That is after all what its says in Deuteronomy. "Behold I have put before you the Life and the Good (i.e. the Torah)." There is a deal you can't turn down. And to some degree I can justify this. But I do not deny there are people of the highest caliber that can defend other paths]

There have been only a few times in my life I was desperate enough to spend time begging God for help

There have been only a few times in  my life I was desperate enough to spend time begging God for help. This is one of them. I am in a situation in which I do not know whether to move or not.. What makes this difficult is that usually when I have moved in the past I was making things worse rather than better. So even though this situation has been going on like this for two years still I have tried to depend on God in this way: I say to myself if He wanted me to move then he would make it happen. If He does not force the issue then He does not want it.


There have been other time when I was absolutely in need of some kind of salvation and I was answered. And sometimes not. When I was growing up there was a time of great turmoil in the USA. The idea of seeking the truth was in the air. This was in Southern California. And once on a vacation with a friend of my mothers we were up in the mountains [maybe Big Bear]. I asked God then while alone in some forest area to guide me towards Truth. [With a Capital "T"]. I think to some degree this prayer was answered. Afterwards I began to study Torah more what we were doing our home. After  a few years  I believe God guided my steps to two very great yeshivas --Shar Yashuv and the Mir in NY.

And the marriage aspect if the yeshiva world is a major factor.

I meant to explain the social aspect of the yeshiva world a few essays back.

And the marriage aspect if the yeshiva world is a major factor.

But this does not mean this works without belief in the importance of learning Torah.

You cant recreate the yeshiva environment without this basic belief. The attempt to do so is why there are so many cults out there.

While is true that just a drop of learning Torah does not seem to help,  still  if  I had been part of the yeshiva world, then I would  be happily married today. I took myself out of the yeshiva world.  But that does not mean to door back is open.  I can't rejoin the yeshiva world in any realistic way. 

Rejoining the yeshiva world is impossible,  I myself try to learn a little Torah every day and I also pray a little asking God for his help in my own words. And this is about all I can advice others also. Learn a little Torah every day, and try to tell God in your own words how sad you are that you have fallen and you can't find  help anywhere and everyone you know has rejected you. Tell this to God every day and ask him for forgiveness and guidance every day for as long as you live. I believe someday you will start to see things change for the better.

The great thing about Musar is it does not claim to be divinely revealed. It is simply telling over in the basic path of Torah.

I have no idea why you are going through your problems. My best suggestion is to learn Torah and Musar and go to a Litvak yeshiva in order to learn in a Litvak yeshiva environment. The Torah I believe can take you out of your problems 

I do not do this much I admit. But still every word of Torah I manage to learn I consider to be worth more that all the gold in the Federal Reserve.
Yeshivas that are legitimate have no reason to be friendly because they are not trying to make a cult. In order to learn Torah, you do have to overcome the initial ignition obstacles.

An added related idea to the above idea:

My reasoning about the Musar (Ethics) aspect of Lithuanian yeshivas is based on a few things. First Reasoning from the Old Testament and the Talmud I think Musar [Ethics written during the Middle Ages] gives an accurate description of Torah Morality more than any other writings.
This is you might think a weak justification. But for myself when I think of how to repent on my sins I think automatically about Musar. I don't think about any alternatives because all the alternatives seem to me to be intellectually dishonest.  The great thing about Musar is it does not claim to be divinely revealed. It is simply telling over in the basic path of Torah. People that learn it for other reasons than fining out what the Torah tells us will not be good people. Musar is mainly just information. And people can do with information whatever they want and in fact often use it in bad ways.  Still for those who want to know what the Torah tells us there is nothing as accurate as Musar.

Later movements like the one the Gra put into excommunication have the outer form of Torah with lots of rituals but they change the inner essence to be worship of human beings. So it can't be used as a source of information about what the Torah requires of us.


Christians often help others in time of need with no thought of personal reward but rather because of their belief that this is what God requires. This is certainly a major tenet of Torah law which believing Christians certainly put into practice. The trouble is the ביטול המצוות (nullification of the commandments) and the problem of worship of  a person. So that does not seem like much of an option.

 So to know what the Torah [Old Testament] requires of me I feel I need to go to books of Jewish Ethics of the Middle Ages. I should mention my older brother David agreed with me on this issue. I had seen in a book that Fear of God is good for length of days. I understood that to mean Musar. And so when my older brother had a health issue recently I told him this. I mentioned specifically the book Duties of the Heart. I said to him that this book I had seen my friends of our parents as being a basic introduction to what Torah requires of us. And I said that I thought learning it would help him. He said he agrees 100%. (I should mention that all Jewish homes in those days had a least one book explaining the basic ideas of the Torah. In our home was the Old Testament in English and Hebrew plus This is my God  by Herman Wouk

Talmud Bava Metzia Shavuot

In the Talmud in Shavuot [page 44a]

 The question is that the Gemara concludes like Rav  Joseph and that is how the Rambam decides. The question is what does the Rambam do with the Gemara in Bava Metzia in which Rav Nachman says about a משכון [collateral for  a loan] that even though one can use it he is not liable in אונסים [armed robbers].

I also wanted to point out why the Rif in our Gemara in Shavuot says the law straightforwards that the lender that loses the pledge is like a שומר שכר paid guard, and in a case of armed robbers, he loses only the amount of the collateral not the whole loan. The reason is quite elegant. It comes out of the steady progression of the Gemara itself to reach that point.
The Mishna says in an argument about a case when the pledge was lost  that the lender loses only the amount the pledge was worth. Shmuel said he loses the whole loan. [he was talking about when the borrower said so openly.] R Eliezer says the lender does not lose anything and R Akiva says he loses the loan. If the pledge is worth the entire amount then why would R Eliezer disagree? So everyone disagrees with Shmuel. Their argument is about R. Isaac that the lender owns the pledge. But if it was taken not at the time of the loan everyone agrees with R Isaac. So it is at the time of the loan and the disagreement is if a guard of a lost object is considered to be paid or not. But that is only if he needs to pledge. If you follow the logic of the Gemara here you can see why the Rif (Isaac Alfasi) says that nothing matters the lender that loses the pledge loses only the amount it was worth. I can't go into it this minute but by following the logic of the Talmud you can see how he was led to this conslution step by step.

The key is to remember that if we don't hold by Shmuel then it does not matter if the borrower said it is against the  loan or not. And if it is at the time of the loan of not also makes no difference since we go by R Akiva against R Eliezer. And even if the lender needs the pledge we still consider he is doing a mitzvah and so gets the coin of Rav Joseph and so is  a שומר שכר

There is one question I have even though I have not even gotten to learn Tosphot properly yet. The Rif does as I say take all the divisions and throws them out, and most of this you can see in the Gemara itself. The last division though I find difficult. If they all hold by R. Isaac that the pledge is owned when it was taken not at the time of the loan, and their argument is at the time of the loan and it goes by the debate between Raba and Rav Joseph, then there is a difference! A pledge taken not at the time of the loan  is owned, and for a pledge taken at the time of the loan, the lender is only a שומר שכר [paid guard]. So why does the Rif say for a pledge taken even not at the time of the loan he is a שומר שכר. He should say if taken not at time of loan he owns it and if taken at time of loan he is a paid guard.

From what I can tell Rashi answers this question in Bava Metzia. [That is he explains the Gemara there in a way that can help us understand the Rif in Shavuot--that is we can say perhaps the Rif was learning like Rashi.] He says on pg 84 that the pledge is owned completely only until the loan is paid. He says openly that what Rabbi Isaac means is that the lender is not a paid nor unpaid guard. He is an owner. But the ownership only exists until the second the borrower comes to pay back the loan. So this is not what I wrote in my ideas in Bava Metzia and I am sad to say I have to go back and correct my mistake. I was thinking around page that the lender owns the object completely.

Does this help us? Maybe. But still it looks like we still end up that for the pledge taken not at the time of the loan he is more than a paid guard--he owns it and thus is liable even in a case it was stolen by force. That is  a case the paid guard would not have to  pay for. So we still are in a mess concerning the Rif.  And we still have to figure out how all this applies to the case of  pledge in chapter 9 of Bava Metzia.

Though learning Torah is important I do not think it is the only area of value.

It is also important to have  good hobbies even if not for the sake of  a vocation.  Start to learn ham radio and computers and also a trade like being a locksmith. 

The main reason I say this is because my parents were against the idea of using Torah as a vocation. This was not their idea alone, but it is in the Torah itself. כל תורה שאין עמה מלאכה סופה בטילה וגוררת עוון. All Torah that does not have work with it is in the end worthless. 

And though I have heard people make an excuse: the Torah is their vocation. But that is even worse than using Torah for money. It is lying about what the Torah says for the sake of money. It does not get any lower than that.

Someone asked me, "Why do we need society?" I realized right then and there what the cognitive problem is. It is the idea that Nature is loving and benign. Without Society, we would all be living in paradise.

Concerning the presidential debates I don't have a lot to say. Mainly my feeling is that people have  a right to their own money.  I don't see the idea of the Democrats that everyone should have the same amount of money as being a worthy goal. Thus any Republican candidate I am for. It does not matter who it is.
But I realize that I lot of people don't share this view. I encountered this growing up in Southern. California. Then in NY I was there during the time there was a Democratic mayor during which time Jews felt under siege as in a time of the pogroms. Then I was in Israel during the rule of the Left wing Labor party in which I loaned someone 100 shekels and they returned my loan of 100 shekels which at the time [about 6 months later] they returned it to me was worth ten shekels. That is when ever the Left is in Power, they destroy society.

Someone asked me, "Why do we need society?" I realized right then and there what the cognitive problem is. It is Rousseau. It is the idea that Nature is loving and benign. Without Society, we would all be living in paradise.

This is needless to say not like the picture we have from the Oral and Written Law. In the Torah people are not considered to be automatically good. Rather we have a good inclination and a Yetzer HaRa--an evil inclination. Not all of our desires are good and should be fulfilled. People can do evil. And not just because of not having as much material goods as the next guy.

I should not really have to explain this to anyone who has every learned even one page of Bava Metzia. But sadly Rousseau has gotten into everyone's nonthinking.


I should mention that any Republican has values that are much close to the Torah than the Democratic party. To vote Republican is not just a statement of Torah values. It also can prove to be the first step to get out of the low and terrible place that the USA has come to. The world of family values and wholesome society is so far gone that some people have even forgotten that that was once what the USA was like.

I have good deal of mixed feelings about Musar Lithuanian kind of Yeshivas. In one way they are palaces of Torah. One can go to one of these kind of places and gain the type of thing that people come to expect in a character building environment. [It is not the Jewish equivalent of the Boy Scouts because it concentrates on Talmud and Musar learning.--not outdoor skills.] But it still in very close to the Boy Scouts in its basic goals of creating moral decent people.
But it has a higher objective beyond this. It intends to create  kind of community around it. One of the most essential aspects of a Litvak Yeshiva is the "Shiduch."[The marriage offer].
There is no Constitution but still there is a set of unspoken rules. On one hand I would like to advocate this kind of thing for all peoples. But as all human institution it has flaws and is no better than the people that run it.  So while as a concept it is a worthy thing still everything depends on the men and women in charge of running it.
The first generation after Europe had some very great people--Shmuel Berenbaum, Rav Hutner, Aaron Kotler and Moshe Feinstein. But that just goes to prove my point. It was the presence of great and dedicated people that made the yeshiva world in the USA what it was.

Just for background information. The basic idea is you have a study hall in which people study Talmud in pairs or alone. Then at around 12 PM is one class given by a "rosh yeshiva". If it is good yeshiva it is  a class on his own new ideas developed over about 20 years of studying the same material in depth. A lower level is  a rosh yeshiva that reads the ideas of others [like Reb Chaim or the Ketzot etc.] and says them over.  This later type is not a very high level but it also is legitimate.
Then there is "Musar Seder" for learning ethics. The best student is in general offered the hand of the Rosh Yeshiva's Daughter. And often he becomes the next Rosh Yeshiva. The other students are offered the hands of the daughters of other people in the community. How they would make a living after getting married is usually a difficult issue. This I have written about before. But in spite of the drawbacks this is a workable system and as  a rule it produces people of high moral character.

[I am myself in Uman right now which is not a yeshiva kind of environment. But I do try to hold on to learning Torah by the skin of my teeth. It is not easy. That is why I suggest learning in a yeshiva environment if possible.]

The son of the Rambam against Pantheism.

The son of the Rambam [Rav Avraham ] wrote a short book called מלחמות השם  concerning the  attacks on his father, the Rambam. A large part of the book deals with the problems of pantheism. People were unhappy with the Guide for the Perplexed of the Rambam because it states clearly that the world was created by God and it is not God. It is not made of His Divine substance and has no pieces of Him inside. A lot of people at the time had pantheistic beliefs about the Torah just as all the religious world does today and they were upset that the Rambam was attacking their beliefs.

Nowadays the strategy has changed from attacking the Rambam to claiming that he agrees with their pantheism.

The Rambam held that God made the world and he is not the world. Instead of the idea "everything is Godliness" the Rambam held that only God is God, and everything else is not God.

There has been an attempt to finagle pantheism into Torah by Rav Shick [Moharosh]. And he was doing this because did not read the Guide of the Rambam. So instead of gaining his ideas about Torah from the Rambam, he got his ideas elsewhere.
[I am not happy about criticizing Rav Shick. But still when he is wrong, he is wrong. If he wanted to present the Bahavagad Gita, the Upanishads or Spinoza, then I would not have anything to complain about. But when he presents pantheism as the faith of the Torah I have to object.]




In any case the book goes into the events surrounding the person the Guide was written for, Joseph Aknin. There was a Daniel who had written a lots of questions about the Mishne Torah and the Guide and sent them to Rav Avraham in a respectful manner. And Rav Avraham wrote back answering him. Then after some years this same Daniel wrote a commentary on Kohelet and in a veiled way attacked the Rambam.
At this same time, the people in  France had signed an excommunication against the Guide and the Ramban (Nachmanides) wrote his famous letter pleading with them to rescind their excommunication. Rav Avraham was apparently aware of the events going on in France also.

music files of the q series and exodus 10

New songs for the glory of the God of Israel q86 q84 q83  q82  q81  q80  q78  i am not saying any of these are so great. It is just I put on this blog the better pieces from NY and Uman and CA a long time ago. These are just the newer ones and I did not really get them into any kind of decent form. I am sure they all need editing. q77 q76 q75  e67 exodus10  q85 g2  q74  q73  q72 q71  q70

Islam A nice video from England.

This explains some of the problems that England is facing because of letting in Muslims.

It seems to me to bring out some very important points and I listened to it from start to finish. It seems very relevant to what is happening in the USA and in Europe and it also shows why Muslims in Israel are violent. I highly recommend this video.

What some refugees carried with them.

Someone asked me if I would teach them Talmud. I said how could I refuse such a question. even if the Dali Lama would ask me I would have to oblige. Still it is best to put yourself in a environment of people that are good at it  and to whom what the Talmud says matters. It is in a way like an apprenticeship. That is during the Middle ages there was a thing as an apprentice that would be given to a guild at the age of five and all he would do for years would be to sweep and cook and clean. But just by hanging around with experts something would get absorbed. Then after some time like that they would start to teach him. And after some time he would in fact become an expert. Talmud is like that. There is something going on inside that you just will not be able to see by just reading the words. You need to learn from an expert.

מדרגת האדם The Levels of Man, by the Alter of Navardok a disciple of Israel Salanter

1) Trust in God I want to decouple from faith in God. That is I want to get to trust in God but when things don't go the way I want them to I do not what my faith weakened. I what to retain faith that there is  a first cause and that he is not the world, but that he made the world something from nothing and he does run it in a way that has a purpose.  I do not want that faith to be weakened even if nothing would go my way.

2) But if I could get to this point in which my faith is secure, I would like to add trust in God to it. This is a more difficult issue than the first. It means to have trust also when things don't go my way. I still would like to believe that even when everything goes wrong this still is his will either as punishment for things I do wrong or as a warning or because of some good that will arise from it.

3) If then I could get to step two I would like to find some kind of aspect of trust where I in fact believe in God enough and strongly in the way that the Madragat Haadam was talking about "from here we learn that one needs no effort at all but what is decreed from Heaven will come to one automatically without any effort at all."

For this kind of thing see מדרגת האדם The Levels of Man, by the Alter of Navardok a disciple of Israel Salanter

Saadia Gaon was the first to write specifically on Jewish philosophy and set the stage forever after for Jewish philosophy to be neo Platonic.

  Saadia Gaon was the first to write specifically on Jewish philosophy and set the stage forever after for Jewish philosophy to be neo Platonic. Even though the Rambam did move into the orbit of Aristotle still the later people like Crescas and Albo try to move the pendulum back to Plato. [Even  mystic people like Avraham Abulafia and the Ari were building on a Neo Platonic framework.]

This is relevant for me because out of my own reading of philosophy I came out with a  Kantian (of Kelley Ross) which is really a modification of Platonic thought.   I wrote in some essay what brought me to this approach. Mainly it was experience plus seeing some of the problems in other approaches.  [There was a lot of time that I spent on Hegel and Spinoza and the Intuitionists, and some time on John Locke. ] I am not saying I am any kind of philosopher myself. Rather I was just looking for a coherent world view to be able to deal with reality.

I mean that even though I have a neo Platonic point of view there are significant modifications and improvements that this needs. That is I don't think everything in Kant and Kelley Ross is automatically included in the Jewsih Philosophers of the Middle Ages. This is unlike Dr. Feser who I believe holds that all true insights of later people were included in the Scholastics. 

The Sidur of Saadia Gaon tells us some things that we might not know. I thought for a long time the basic blessing in the morning before the Shema was  elongated. But I was not sure about what part. The reason is that it seemed to me there was something in it that was essential besides the first sentence and last. That is I did not think it was like a simple Bore nefashot with a חתימה
[ending]. Someone showed me that in the sidur of Saadia Gaon, the first blessing is, in fact, just the first sentence, then the one sentence after that, and then the last חתימה [ending].

At any rate, my opinion is that the writings of Saadia Gaon are important because Yidishkeit has gone way off the path already for too long.

I see the attempts to undermine the Constitution of the USA to be the rise of the Dark Side.

Democracy was criticized by Herodotus. He said in it the wicked make strong alliances to destroy society, but the good simple people are suspicious of each other. Thus it is destroyed from within. This is clearly what is going on in the USA. This is a reason that the founding fathers of the USA said it can not survive unless the people are moral. \
Though the type of system that Herodotus critiqued was a pure democracy, still the same applies to a republic as we can see from Rome.

 Just so my opinion should be clear--I see the attempts to undermine the Constitution of the USA  to be  the rise of the Dark Side. 

My learning partner is allergic to Musar. [Books of Medieval Ethics and of Israel Salanter's disciples] He thinks it is painting by the numbers.To some degree you can see this in things like the small Musar book of the Rosh "(1)To go away from pride as much as possible (2) Also from lying (3) also from ... (4) also from ..."



My opinion is Musar is important and I think that I can see the results of not learning it.  You certainly do not see anything like the moral standards of places that do learn Musar. This is a s clear as the sun at high noon. 

Once you walk away from some aspect of holiness you can never return. You can try to go through the motions but the inner essence never returns.
 I walked out of the Mir in order to go to Israel. Though I succeed and even did well in some ways--still  the essence of the Mir --the light of inner holiness of learning Talmud in depth I was never able to catch up with again.  Even the fact that God granted to me a few ideas in Talmud here and there only came about because of my learning partner. Same thing when I left Israel. Though I tried to return but I never could and that light and holiness that was part of my first stay there also never returned. The lesson is: if you have something good, hold onto it with all your might. Don't think it will follow you around. [That is at least the lesson for my kind of soul. There are several different types --so my advice here might only apply to me and similar kinds of people.]

Avraham Abulafia [a mystic who wrote many mystic books in the Middle Ages] held Jesus was Messiah ben Joseph.

Avraham Abulafia [a mystic who wrote many kabalistic books in the Middle Ages] held Jesus was Messiah ben Joseph.  The issue of Messiah son of Joseph is a totally different issue than Messiah son of David as we see in the end of the Talmud Tractate Suka, the Ramchal and many other sources.

The main idea is that messiah son of Joseph is a kind of preparation for the redemption in which there will be the Temple in Jerusalem rebuilt and the sacrifices of the Torah will be brought again. This later stage has not happened.
Still being Messiah son of Joseph according to Rav Abulafia is not a bad thing. In theory it is good to believe in a great person and bad to follow or believe in wicked people. So if some people believe in a tzadik --even if they overdo it--why complain?

Merry Christmas

So for one day I suggest we all lay down our hatreds and animosity. Let's have the equivalent of the 1914 Christmas truce between the allies and the Germans. Sure we all have good reasons to hate each other. Christians have doctrines and beliefs we can't accept. Many Christians have beliefs about Jews that makes them think us bad people. Let's for one day forget all this. We all believe in One God, the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob,  though we worship Him differently. We all believe in the Ten Commandments. So for one day, let's aspire for peace on earth and good will unto men. If we can manage that for one day, who knows? Maybe we will be able to manage it for two? Or three?






Post script: This is not to imply anything in terms of theology. Just it is information for the record.
Clearly Rav Abulafia disagreed with Catholic theology. He went to debate the pope. The pope ordered him arrested when he reached the gates of Rome. The story is mysterious but it seems that no one could touch him.

Plus I might add that Chaim Vital borrowed the unifications of Avraham Abulfia in the last vol of Shaari HaKedusha. And his works were translated completely for the first time in history the 1990's until 2005. [Before that I read some of the microfilm copies in the basement of HU]

 I must add than none of this has anything to do with our basic obligations in the Oral or Written Law. Nor does it have anything to do with theology.] That is because of reasons I have not understood some people think that there is no reason to keep mitzvot plus  they think a messiah must have something to do with theology. None of that makes sense to me. Mitzvot are still mitzvot and Monotheism is still monotheism.


The whole issue is a Midrashic kind of thing. Still the basic sources for the messiah son of Joseph type of issue are in the Talmud at the end of Suka, the Tikunim Chadashim of the Ramchal. the Kol HaTor of the Gra.]

Appendix the problem with all this is this gives to Jews for Jesus or any of their different varieties an excuse to try to convert Jews to Christianity. And that is not my intent. The reason is that Jews for Jesus exaggerate the importance of  the issue of the messiah. They think that if one accept a particular person as their "lord and messiah" that that means they are going to heaven. They accept the Trinity. These doctrines are mistaken. But not necessarily bad. The best thing is to be a simple Jew and learn the Oral and Written law and not follow any person but God alone. Judaism is not about worship of any person but worship of God according to the Written and Oral Law, {Old Testament, and two Talmuds}

The positive side is that everyone needs some picture of human perfection to aspire to. If they don't have Jesus, they  find often someone that is evil, or a mixture of good and evil. So following Jesus as Christians do is a lot better option than what the vast majority of what people do and whom they follow. Still in my opinion it is best to sit and learn Talmud and have  a kosher vocation and be a simple Jew. If I have any ideal of human perfection, it is my two parents

I mentioned the basic idea of the above essay to my learning partner and he opened up the Rambam in the 13 principles of faith and after that the last two halachot in Mishne Torah. On most of the above he wrote the exact same thing that I wrote. That is even if one would believe in Jesus as a Messiah son of Joseph   that would not be any reason to worship him nor would it have anything to do with keeping the commandments of the Torah. However he does have  negative opinion about Jesus himself. And I am sure most rishonim would agree with the Rambam. However on the opposite side there is Rav Abulfia and Yaakov Emden.
There is a practical side to all this. I often find that when I need help, Believing Christians are the only ones that will help me. Others of my own people ignore me or throw me from the top of the staircase and then there are Muslims who try to kill me.  I am certainly not the only one with these kinds of experiences.

Music for the glory of the God of Israel

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