page 13 of Bava Kama

There is something going on in Tosphot on page 13 of Bava Kama that I am finding hard to understand. Why does he bring up the issue of whether the ox does full damage or half in his question on Rashi. I was puzzling about this until I saw the second edition of the Maharsha. Still the issue is unclear to me.

The basic issue is this. On page 13 the case is a peace offering gores another animal. The law is the owner of the animal can not say I want the parts of the animal that are not brought as a sacrifice. They both have to share equally. The Gemara asks who is this going like. If to the sages then it is simple.
ר' אבא אמר שלמים שנגחו גובים מן הבשר ולא מן האימורים היינו החלקים שעולים על המזבח. הגמרא שואלת לפי מי זה? אם לפי החכמים אז הוא פשוט.. מה הדין של החכמים? הוא אם שור דחף בהמה לבור-בעל השור משלם ולא בעל הבור. ולפי רש''י הכוונה היא שבעל השור משלם את הכל אם הוא מועד וחצי אם הוא תם. תוספות שואלים אם כן מה הדמיון למצב של שלמים שנגח ששם גם האימורים הם חלק מן השור? תוספות מוסיפים בתוך שאלתם על רש''י שבשלב הזה של הגמרא אוחזים שכל חלק מן השלמים עשו כל הנזק. שאם לא כן וכל חלק הזיק רק לפי חלקו אז  הניזק יכול לומר שמגיע לו רק הבשר ולא האימורים. אבל לי נראה שזה תלוי בדין של ברירה. ואם זה תלוי בברירה אז מה משנה אם כל חלק עשה כל הנזק או רק הזיק לפי חלקו?


What is the case of the sages? It is when a ox pushes another animal into a pit. and the sages say the owner of the ox pays, not the owner of the pit.  Rashi explains the sages that they mean if the ox is tam [never gored before] then the owner of the ox pays a full half and if it is muad [it gored before] he pays full.
Tosphot asks if so then the owner of the pit has no portion in the damage and so what is the parallel to the case of the peace offering?
But then Tosphot adds that Rashi must be holding at this point in the case of the ox and the pit that the sages are holding the ox does full damage. Why because otherwise why would the owner of the ox pay full damages. But also the Maharsha add a further reason. That is the if the sages hold the ox did half damages then when we get back to the case of the peace offering there would be a good reason for the owner of the animal that was damaged to claim only the half of the ox that does not go on the altar is the part that did the damages.

The thing about this that I find difficult is the question is this not then a case of brera?[choosing a portion after the fact. ]

learning Torah

I noticed today in the book of Rav Nahman from Breslov a few interesting ideas.

The idea that he introduces is that by learning Torah with energy one merits to grace in such a way that ones requests are answered whether from heaven of from people.

The way learning Torah with energy is explained in the commentary on Rav Nahman [Parparot LeKhahma] to be the idea of learning Torah with "Hatmada" constantly and with effort.

When in my life things were going better and I was successful this particular lesson did not make much sense to me. Things were going my way and my prayers were being answered.

However nowadays when things stopped going my way and I have no grace in the eyes of God [in such a sense that my prayers are answered] nor of people it makes a lot more sense.

However I do not see it all that possible to reinsert myself into the Lithuanian yeshiva world where in fact Torah is learned with energy and hatmada (constantly)

This is an argument between Tosphot and the Rambam. The idea is there is a cause of damage that is sufficient in itself to cause the damage. But another person adds to it. Is he also obligated. This is like a case of fire that is burning hot enough to destroy a stack of hay but someone throws an extra stick in. Is he also obligated for his addition?

If you have a pit in a public domain that is ten hand breaths deep and someone adds to it another hand-breath is that obligated for damages? This is an argument between Tosphot and the Rambam.

[See the Rosh in Bava Kama, chapter 2. And the Shiltai HaGiborim on the Rif].

It seems to me that this might depend on the argument between the Sages and R. Natan in Bava Kama 53. Over there we have acase an ox pushed another ox into a pit. the sages say the owner of the ox is obligated not the owner of the pit. R. Natan said in the case of an ox that never gored before the owner of the ox is required a 1/4 and the owner of the pit is obligated in1/2. In the case of an ox that has already gored two times before each pays 1/2. It seems to me that the Rambam here is going like the sages.

The idea is there is a cause of damage that is sufficient in itself to cause the damage. But another person adds to it. Is he also obligated. This is like a case of fire that is burning hot enough to destroy a stack of hay but someone throws an extra stick in. Is he also obligated for his addition?



[There is an argument between Tosphot and Rashi about what the sages actually hold --but I simply have not had a chance to take a good look at their argument yet. As I mentioned my life has been total chaos for a over a year.]

Danny Frederick [https://philpapers.org/rec/FRETCE-3] says that there is a theory of Berkeley about justification for government that comes from the fact that without government there would be really terrible consequences.

path of my father

I would like to present the path of my father.[Philip Rosenblum (Rosten)] For me it is kind of hard to define but if I give a little background on how I was raised that might make it a bit clearer.

The main thing about it was balance. So learning Torah in the way of the Litvaks --the Gra and Rav Shach is certainly a part of that. Authentic Torah. But it was more along the lines of a balance of values.
His parents came over from Poland right around WWI. His father Yaakov Rosenblum was invited to the USA by his older brother who was married to a girl from Poland. [Not the same city.] When yaakov got to the USA his brother suggested that they send for the sister of the brother's wife so she could marry Yaakov. "She would like you" the brother and his wife said. So Rivka, my grandmother came over also to the USA and married Yaakov.
So My Dad and his brother and sister all went to public school while ,my grandfather worked in a bakery in lower Manhattan.

My Dad went to Cal Tech [the California Institute of Technology] and he liked it. It was not his way to emphasize any particular advice of path to me or my brothers but clearly he like the idea of technology and classical music. So my brothers and I all went to public school but in order to learn Torah we went to Temple Israel in Hollywood.  But I want to add that my parents also wanted me and my brothers to go to the boy scouts. But somehow that simply did not stick with any of us. But that was one area that my father definitely emphasized to the nth degree--to be self reliant.

I continued my education in Shar Yashuv and later the Mir in NY and after that i majored in Physics at NYU.
So you see there is a kind of aspect of balance in the path of my dad that is hard to define. He also I must add volunteered for the USAF during WWII and was sent to the European Theater of action. He became a captain in the USAF.

So what you mainly see from this is that his path was more or less to be  "a mensch". [Which is how my mom put it.]

But there was something much more that that. He had that undefinable quality that you see in navy seals--never give up. Commitment, Integrity, Loyalty. Things that you can not learn from a textbook.

Henry the fifth simply kidnapped the Pope

Henry the fifth simply kidnapped the Pope until he agreed with the position of Henry that the king has the right to appoint bishops over his areas.

In any case the situation today with the Catholic church does seem problematic. I would say that in fact there has been a kind of evolution. In fact I have been looking at Smith Wigglesworth, Maria Etter, Semour [Azusa Street], Ameiee Semple McPherson and Kathryn Kuhlman. And it does look that there has been a kind of evolutionary process.

Litvak Yeshiva world.

I admit I did not do very well in the Litvak Yeshiva world. I did not have the kind of staying power that some people have to stick with learning the Oral and Written Law --at all cost. At some point, I got distracted --you might say. I got involved with Breslov. In so far as that means to listen to the amazing advice of Rav Nahman from Breslov, that is a great thing. But the tendency is for it to distract from plain simple learning Gemara. Or at least that seems to have been the effect it had on me. Later when I actually got to Uman and was able to learn with David Bronson, the interest in Gemara started up again. But I can not claim to be any kind of Litvak type of person. The reason my blog is labeled after Rav Shach and the Gra is I see them as ideals I would like to strive for,-- but do not claim to be anywhere near their amazing levels.

I ought to add that no matter how much one is devoted to learning straight Tora in the Litvak way, it is needed to marry a girl that also holds from this as a life goal. It does not help much if you are devoted to learning and your wife is constantly criticizing this and asking for more money.

This kind of situation is inherently unstable.


[Still I do not want to sound critical of Rav Nahman who was a great tzadik. Just because I understood his advice and approach in the wrong way does not mean that it is mistaken. As Steven Dutch wrote that he can not conceive of any system that can not be corrupted.'

"There is no perfect system

I am completely unable to conceive of any legal or social system that can’t be subverted or abused. People who crave power or status will gravitate toward whatever confers those rewards. And they will always discover ways to get the rewards without paying their dues."

https://stevedutch.net/Pseudosc/Dutchrules.htm



 [Anyway, ideas are true or false because of how they correspond to reality, not how their believers do.](https://stevedutch.net/Pseudosc/10DumRel.htm)