Z19 B minor      z19 midi  z19 nwc

תלמיד חכם שד יהודי Torah scholar that is a demon [LeM vol. I:12. Also vol I:28 and Zohar page 253 on the Book of Numbers]

From where does Rav Nahman [of Uman and Breslov] get the idea that there is such a thing as a Torah scholar that is a demon? It is from the Zohar page 253 in the book of Numbers. I had a chance to look it up and  I see it is a good source to some degree, but Rav Nahman does interpret it in a unique way. For all you really see there is that there are two kinds of demons. Gentile demons and Jewish demons. And the Zohar does bring from the Gemara that Jewish demons can be sent on errands for the sake of Torah scholars that learn Mishna. And it adds that these Jewish demons are experts in Torah. But so far you do not see that they enter into the bodies of Torah scholars. That is a new idea that Rav Nahman adds. 

[I should add here that I have a high degree of confidence in what Rav Nahman writes. And this lesson in particular seems to me to very important because it tells us something that otherwise people would only come to know by bitter experience after there is no more chance of correcting the damage that these demonic Torah scholars do.]

 

 חשבתי על תשובת רב שך בעבודה זרה כ''ג ע''ב ועכשיו אני חושב שזה נכון. הסיבה שאני אומר זאת היא שגם כשארץ כנען ניתנה לאברהם, שאומר שהוא רצה לקבל בעלות על האשרות [העצים שנשתלו כדי לסגוד להם.] ורק למען הוויכוחים נניח שהוא קיבל זכות בעלים בכל מקרה. אז מה יהיה הרעיון החדש? אנחנו כבר יודעים שצריך לשרוף אליל ששייך לישראלי. אז הגמרא הזו רוצה להגיד לנו משהו חדש, כלומר שכדי שאובייקט ייאסר כאליל, הוא לא צריך להיות בבעלות האדם הסוגד לו. אלא די בכך שהבעלים לא יתנגד. ולמעשה זה מקור החוק הזה

Rav Shach's answer in Avoda Zara 23 side b

I was thinking about Rav Shach's answer in Avoda Zara 23 side b and now I think it is right. The reason I say this is that even when the land of Canaan was given to Avraham, who says he wanted to get ownership of the asherot [trees that had been planted to be worshipped.] And just for argument's sake let's say he got ownership of them anyway. Then what would be the new idea? We already know that an idol that belongs to a Israeli needs to be burned. So this Gemara wants to tell us something new, I.e. that for an object to become forbidden as an idol, it does not need to be owned by the person worshipping it. Rather it is enough that the owner does not object. And in fact this is the source of that law. 

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I was thinking about רב שך answer in עבודה זרה כ''ג ע''ב and now I think it is right. The reason I say this is that even when the land of Canaan was given to Avraham, who says he wanted to get ownership of the אשות [trees that had been planted to be worshipped.] And just for argument's sake let's say he got ownership of them anyway. Then what would be the new idea? We already know that an idol that belongs to a Israeli needs to be burned. So this גמרא wants to tell us something new, I.e. that for an object to become forbidden as an idol, it does not need to be owned by the person worshipping it. Rather it is enough that the owner does not object. And in fact this is the source of that law.

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 I saw a book on the life of Israel Oddeser, [the person that found the hidden letter of Rav Nachman concerning  Na Nach Nachma Nachman Me'Uman] and I noticed he told one person about the importance of olive oil -both for putting on a wound or sore and also to drink a little bit. There he also mentions to put on a wound a sort of concoction made of tea. [That is to boil tea leaves in a small amount of water so the water is like a concentrated mix, sort of like concentrated orange juice.]

I would like to explain why Rav Shach explains the Gemara in Avoda Zara 23 as referring to the trees that were planted before Avraham and then worshipped after Israel served the golden calf. Normally trees that have been planted for fruit can not become idols since they are like mountains and the sun and moon that  have no human hold on them. This in fact is the reason I am thinking the Gemara is referring to trees that were planted to be idols at the very start and then the land was given to Avraham. That would make them idols of Israel that need to be burnt. But Rav Shach explains this Gemara differently since the Gemara says the only reason the trees are forbidden is that Israel served the golden calf. In My way of looking at the Gemara that reason would be irrelevant. So to him it has to refer to trees that were planted before Avraham and thus became the property of Israel after the land was given to him. And then the Canaanites worshiped those trees and there was no objection from Israel since they too at that time had served idols. It can not refer to trees that were planted after Avraham since those would be owned by the Canaanites and thus be idols of a idolater and only need nullification, not burning.

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I would like to explain why רב שך explains the גמרא in עבודש זרה דף כ''ג ע''ב as referring to the trees that were planted before Avraham and then worshipped after Israel served the golden calf. Normally trees that have been planted for fruit can not become idols since they are like mountains and the sun and moon that  have no human hold on them. This in fact is the reason I am thinking the גמרא is referring to trees that were planted to be idols at the very start and then the land was given to Avraham. That would make them idols of Israel that need to be burnt. But רב שך explains this גמרא differently since the גמרא says the only reason the trees are forbidden is that Israel served the golden calf. In My way of looking at the גמרא that reason would be irrelevant. So to him it has to refer to trees that were planted before Avraham and thus became the property of Israel after the land was given to him. And then the Canaanites worshiped those trees and there was no objection from Israel since they too at that time had served idols. It can not refer to trees that were planted after Avraham since those would be owned by the Canaanites and thus be idols of a idolater and only need nullification, not burning.

ברצוני להסביר מדוע רב שך מסביר את הגמרא עבודה זרה דף כ''ג ע''ב כמתייחס לעצים שנשתלו לפני אברהם ואז סגדו להם לאחר שישראל עבד את עגל הזהב. בדרך כלל עצים אשר ניטעו לפרי אינם יכולים להפוך לאלילים מכיוון שהם דומים להרים ולשמש ולירח שאין בהם אחיזה אנושית. זו למעשה הסיבה שאני חושב שהגמרא מתייחסת לעצים שנשתלו לאלילים כבר בהתחלה, ואז האדמה ניתנה לאברהם. זה יהפוך אותם לאלילי ישראל שצריכים להישרף. אך רב שך מסביר את גמרא זו אחרת מכיוון שהגמרא אומרת שהסיבה היחידה שהעצים אסורים היא שישראל עבד את עגל הזהב. בדרך שלי להסתכל בגמרא, סיבה זו לא תהיה רלוונטית. אז מבחינתו יש להתייחס לעצים שנשתלו לפני אברהם וכך הפכו לנחלת ישראל לאחר שניתנה לו האדמה. ואז הכנענים סגדו לאותם עצים ולא הייתה שום התנגדות מצד ישראל מכיוון שגם הם באותה תקופה שירתו אלילים. זה לא יכול להתייחס לעצים שנטעו אחרי אברהם מכיוון שאלו היו בבעלות הכנענים ובכך להיות אלילים של עכו''ם וזקוק לביטול, ולא לשרוף.

Rav Shach Laws of Idolatry chapter 8 law 3

See Rav Shach Laws of Idolatry chapter 8 law 3. Think what Rav Shach means is this. Trees that are planted as regular trees do not become asherot. Idolatrous trees. Only trees that are planted in order to be worshipped. So the asherot that were in Israel at the time the land was given to Avraham, become the possession of  Israel and so need to be burnt. The Asherot that were planted after teh land was given to Avraham were the possession of idolaters and so could simply be nullified and did not need to be burnt. This explains Tosphot Rosh Hashana page 23a. There Tosphot asks on the Gemara in Avoda Zara that asks why did the asherot need to be burnt? After all a person does not forbid what does not belong to him.  The Gemara answers because Israel served the Golden calf, so idolatry was considered OK to them. Because if we would be talking about the asherot that were there before, those could simply be nullified.

Tosphot says that the idolaters in fact owned the produce of the land.  So when the Gemara says the asherot needed to be burnt that refers to the asherot that were there at from the beginning. What that means is the asherot that were in the land at the time it was given to Abraham needed to be burnt. These that were planted after that needed only nullification. 

Still the Gemara itself is hard to understand. Those that were planted after Abraham should have been forbidden simply because they were the property of the Canaanites. Why do you need the reason that Israel served the golden calf to make them forbidden?

This is in answer to a question I asked on Rav Shach a few days ago.

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See רב שך הלכות עבודה זרה פרק ח הלכה ג.  Trees that are planted as regular trees do not become אשרות. Idolatrous trees. Only trees that are planted in order to be worshipped. So the אשרות that were in Israel at the time the land was given to Avraham, become the possession of  Israel and so need to be burnt. The אשרות that were planted after the land was given to Avraham were the possession of idolaters and so could simply be nullified and did not need to be burnt. This explains תוספות ראש השנה דף כ''ג ע''ב. There תוספות asks on the גמרא in עבודה זרה that asks why did the אשרות need to be burnt? After all a person does not forbid what does not belong to him.  The גמרא answers because Israel served the Golden calf, so idolatry was considered OK to them. Because if we would be talking about the אשרות that were there before, those could simply be nullified. תוספות says that the idolaters in fact owned the produce of the land.  So when the גמרא says the אשרות needed to be burnt, that refers to the אשרות that were there at from the beginning. What that means is the אשרות that were in the land at the time it was given to Abraham needed to be burnt. These that were planted after that needed only nullification. Still the גמרא itself is hard to understand. Those that were planted after Abraham should have been forbidden simply because they were the property of the Canaanites. Why do you need the reason that Israel served the golden calf to make them forbidden?

ראה רב שך הלכות עבודה זרה פרק ח הלכה ג.  עצים הנטועים כעצים רגילים אינם הופכים לאשרות (עצים אלילים). רק עצים הנטועים על מנת לסגוד להם. כך שהאשרות שהיו בישראל בזמן שניתנה הארץ לאברהם, הופכים להיות נחלת ישראל ולכן צריך לשרוף אותם. אשרות אשר נשתלו לאחר שניתנה האדמה לאברהם היו רכוש עובדי אלילים וכך ניתן היה לבטלם בפשטות ואין צורך לשרוף אותם. זה מסביר תוספות ראש השנה דף כ''ג ע''ב. שם שואל תוספות על הגמרא בעבודה זרה ששואל מדוע היה צורך לשרוף את אשרות? הרי אדם לא אוסר את מה שלא שייך לו. הגמרא עונה מכיוון שישראל שימשה את עגל הזהב, ולכן עבודת אלילים נחשבה להם בסדר. כי אם היינו מדברים על אשרות שהיו שם בעבר, ניתן היה לבטל אותן. תוספות אומר כי האשרות למעשה היו תוצרת הארץ ורכוש הכנענים. לכן כאשר הגמרא אומרת שיש צורך לשרוף את אשרות, הכוונה היא לאשרות שהיו שם מההתחלה. פירוש הדבר הוא שהאשרות שהיו בארץ בזמן שניתנה לאברהם הייתה צריכה להישרף. אלה שנשתלו לאחר מכן נזקקו לביטול בלבד. אבל עדיין קשה להבין את הגמרא עצמה. אלה שנטעו אחרי אברהם היו צריכים להיות אסורים פשוט משום שהם נחלת הכנענים. מדוע אתה צריך את הסיבה שישראל עבדו את עגל הזהב כדי לאסור אותם. זה קרוב למה שרב שך כתב. הוא כתב ש  העצים הזקוקים שריפה הם אלו שניטעו קודם שניתנה הארץ לאברהם ונעבדו אחרי כן. אבל קשה על זה שאשרה חייבת להיות נטוע מראש למטרת עבודה זרה