Bava Batra 36b ממטע עשרה

In answer to the question I asked yesterday evening about Tosphot

It occurred to me that Tosphot understands the area around the tree when the Gemara says it holds from 4 to 16 not in the way I had thought. Rather Tosphot is being exact with the language of the Gemara [Bava Batra page 82b] "How much is there between them?" So  each tree only gets up until 8 yards. In that way in a field that each tree gets 8 yards there will be 16 between each one.
So Tosphot holds that when Abyee said a proof of ownership exists for a field with 10 trees per 50*50 that comes out 250 for each and that is 9 per tree which is too much.


I am grateful to God for granting to me to understand Tosphot when I had pretty much given up on it.

[I should mention that the משנה says קנה שלשה קנה קרקע and the גמרא asks כמה ר' חייא בר אבא אמר כמלא אורה וסלו דק אמות is how much around those trees is נקנה. The later question of the גמרא כמה יהא ביניהן is not the same thing. It is asking how much distance can there be between these trees so that the law of קנה שלשה קנה קרקע should apply.]

אני צריך להזכיר כי המשנה אומרת קנה שלשה קנה קרקע והגמרא שואלת כמה ר' חייא בר אבא אמר כמלא אורה וסלו (ארבע אמות) היא כמה סביב עצים אלה הוא נקנה. השאלה המאוחרת של הגמרא היא כמה יהא ביניהן אינה אותו הדבר. היא שואלת כמה המרחק יכול להיות בין העצים האלה, כך שהחוק של קנה שלשה קנה קרקע צריך להחיל


_________________________________________________________________






It occurred to me that תוספות understands the area around the tree when the גמרא says it holds from ארבע עד שש עשרה אמות  not in the way I had thought. Rather תוספות is being exact with the language of רב חייא בר אבא "how much is there between them". So thus תוספות holds each tree only gets up until שמנה אמות yards. In that way in a field that each tree gets שמנה אמות there will be שש עשרה between each one.
So תוספות asks that when אביי said a proof of ownership (חזקה) exists for a field with עשרה אילנות trees per חמישים על חמישים that comes out 250 for each and that is תשעה אמות per tree which is too much.


עלה בדעתי כי תוספות מבין ששטח שהעץ  תופס כאשר גמרא אומרת שהוא  מארבע עד שש עשרה אמות לא בדרך שחשבתי. תוספות הוא  מדייק עם השפה של רב חייא בר אבא "כמה שטח יש ביניהם". אז  תוספות מחזיק לכל עץ יש רק עד שמנה אמות. ככה בשדה שכל עץ מקבל שמנה אמות תהיינה שש עשרה בין כל אחד. אז תוספות שואל שכאשר אביי אמר הוכחת הבעלות (חזקה) קיימת בשדה עם עשרה אילנות לכל חמישים על חמישים שיוצאים מאתיים וחמישים עבור כל אחד כי זה תשע אמות לכל עץ אשר הוא יותר מדי.

בבא בתרא ל''ו ע''ב

Ula in the Gemara says that a tree within 16 yards of a neighbor's boundary is guilty of stealing because of the roots that go 16 yards. The Gemara tries to find where this comes from. If the Mishna about 10 saplings with a 50* 50 that leaves each tree with only 9 yards [200=pi*r^2 for each sapling]
So they try another mishna with 3 grown trees for the same 50*50, and that turns out to be close.
Later the Gemara says the area one tree takes up for purposes of acquisition is 4-16. [Buying three trees gets the land between them. Two trees not.]

Now some background. Let's say one person has worked on a field for three years but has no document and the previous owner did not object, then if the owner was near enough to be aware of the situation, we believe the fellow that worked the land and says it was sold to him.
Abyee says let's say a field has 30 trees according to the division of ten to 50* 50 and the fellow worked and ate from each set of ten, that is called a חזקה proof of ownership.


The question Tosphot asks is based on Abyee: What is the difference between acquisition and proof of acquisition. [Tosphot Bava Batra 36B]

I am not at all sure I understand Tosphot. If Abyee actually means 10 per 50*50 that is well within the limits of 4-16. So it must be he is asking on the three trees per 50*50.


בבא בתרא ל''ו ע''ב תוספות
עולא says is a person owns  a tree that is  within י''ו אמות of a neighbor's boundary is can not bring ביכורים from that tree because of the roots that go שש עשרה אמות. The גמרא tries to find where this comes from. If the משנה about עשר  נטיעות saplings with a חמישים על חמישים that leaves each אילן with only תשעה אמות. So they try another משנה with שלשה grown trees for the same חמישים על חמישים, and that turns out to be close.
Later the גמרא says the area on אילן takes up is ארבה עד שש עשרה אמות. When one buy three trees, he receives the קרקע between them. Two trees not. Now some background. Let's say one person has worked on a field for three years but has no document and the previous owner did not object, then if the owner was near enough to be aware of the situation we we believe the fellow that worked the land and says it was sold to him. אביי says let's say a field has  אילנות שלשים according to the division of ten to חמישים על חמישים and the fellow worked and ate from each set of ten, that is called a חזקה היינו proof of ownership. The question תוספות asks is based on אביי what is the difference between acquisition and proof of acquisition בין מכר וחזקה.  I am not at all sure I understand תוספות. If he actually means עשרה אילנות per חמישים על חמישים that is well within the limits of ד-י''ו. So it must be he is asking on the three trees per חמישים על חמישים.

I wish I had an Avi Ezri to see what he has to say about this.
I have no doubt if I had been learning with David Bronson, he would have figured this out a long time ago. It must be something simple but I just can not seem to figure out what Tosphot means to ask.
If Abyee had said like the Gemara on page 16 that for saplings we go by 10 saplings for a 50*50 space and for grown trees we go by 3 for the 50*50 then everything in Tosphot would be clear. The trouble is that Abyee said "10 trees" not 10 saplings.  I imagine Tosphot is thinking that Abyee meant 10 trees according to the division of עשר נטיעות לבית סאה  ten saplings for a 50*50 space which gives three big trees the same space.




בבא בתרא ל''ו ע''ב תוספות. עולא אומר הוא עץ בבעלותו של אדם שהוא בתוך י''ו אמות של גבול של שכן אינו יכול להביא ביכורים מהעץ בגלל השורשים שהולכים שש עשרה אמות. הגמרא מנסה למצוא מאיפה זה נובע. אם משנת עשר נטיעות (שתילים) בשדה חמישים על חמישים זה משאיר לכל אילן עם רק תשע אמות. אז הם מנסים עוד משנה עם שלשת עצים הגדלים באותה חמישים על חמישים, וכי מיתברר שזה קרוב. מאוחר יותר הגמרא אומרת האזור שאילן תופס הוא ארבע עד שש עשרה אמות. כאשר אחד קונה שלושה עצים, הוא מקבל את הקרקע ביניהם. שני עצים לא. עכשיו קצת רקע. נניח אדם אחד עבד בשדה במשך שלוש שנים אך אין מסמכים והבעלים הקודמים לא התנגדו במשך השלש שנים, אז אם הבעלים היו קרובים מספיק כדי להיות מודע למצב  שאנו מאמינים האדם שעבד את האדמה ואומר שזו נמכרה לו .אביי אומר תניח בשדה יש שלשים אילנות  לפי חלוקה של עשרה בשדה חמישים על חמישים ואדם עבד ואכל מכל קבוצה של עשרה,(עשרה בכל שנה שלש שנים) כי זה נקרא הוכחה של בעלות (חזקה).  תוספות שואל שאלה מבוססת על אביי מה הבדל בין רכישה והוכחת רכישה (בין מכר וחזקה). אני  לא בטוח שאני מבין את התוספות. אם אביי כיוון עשרה אילנות לכל חמישים על חמישים, זה הוא גם בגבול ד-י''ו. אז זה חייב להיות הוא שואל על שלושה עצים לכל חמישים על חמישים. אבל זה כנראה לא מה שאמר אביי.

U54 U52 music files

U-54mp3 U-54 midi U-54 nwc

   U-52 Music for the Glory of God  [U-52  midi]  [U-52 nwc]

If the entire profession starts off with false axioms, how much good can they possibly do?

It is astonishing how much money every year goes into pseudo science especially in areas that deal with the human mind.

The problem I think stems from that fact that they are starting out with obviously false axioms.
(1) "That whatever anyone does not socially acceptable (to people in society at that time) is  a mental disease caused by their parents." Later this fundamental axiom they altered to "caused by their father"
(2) Whatever anyone does that is not done by 99% of all other people is a mental disease.

If the entire profession starts off with false axioms, how much good can they possibly do?
-
Frankly, I blame this on the prestige that science got after the Enlightenment. So stupid people that can not do real science just had to get into the act by this fraud and scam.
But further I would have to say it is I think part of  a general phenomenon of the war between powers of good and evil in the world. In this global battle  Evil tries to wiggle itself into people minds.

good traits and fear of God, --a lot depends of getting them when one is young.

In terms of gaining good traits and fear of God, a lot depends of getting them when one is young. As Howard Bloom points out in The Lucifer Principle one's thought patterns at a certain point get hardened into one mind like a circuit board that after one places the connections in the right places, then heats it up to retain the connections.
That book is I think one of the great books to come out from the twentieth century [along with The Closing of the American Mind by Allan Bloom. It is a wake up call that I think fell  mainly on deaf ears. Still I think some people got the idea.]

The whole issue of needing to work consciously one one traits was certainly a motivating factor of Reb Israel Salanter in creating the Musar Movement--that is the idea of learning medieval books on ethics. [The advantage of the Middle Ages in terms of this kind of study is that it was the period when the scholastic thinkers were at their peak in finding the balance between Faith and Reason. ]

The idea really did not end with the Middle Ages. A lot of good work was done later by the disciples of Reb Israel Salanter. They also wrote a few Musar books--some of which are remarkable [Navardok and the אור צפון and אור ישראל come to mind]

Orion

NGC 4676: when mice collide These two mighty galaxies are pulling each other apart.

NGC 4676: when mice collide

These two mighty galaxies are pulling each other apart. Known as the “Mice” because they have such long tails, each spiral galaxy has likely already passed through the other. The long tails are created by the relative difference between gravitational pulls on the near and far parts of each galaxy. Because the distances are so large, the cosmic interaction takes place in slow motion – over hundreds of millions of years. NGC 4676 lies about 300 million light-years away toward the constellation of Bernice’s Hair (Coma Berenices) and are likely members of the Coma Cluster of Galaxies. The above picture was taken with the Hubble Space Telescope’s Advanced Camera for Surveys in 2002. These galactic mice will probably collide again and again over the next billion years until they coalesce to form a single galaxy.