Eliyahu the prophet asked Israel on Mount Carmel, "How long will you jump between the two extremes? If the Lord is God, then serve Him. If the Baal is God, then serve him."
At the time the Temple of Solomon was in Jerusalem, and people would go there and worship God and then return home and go to the local Baal Center and worship there. That way that had all their bases covered.
The Gra [Eliyahu from Villna] had the same  point. He saw people were worshiping God but also worshiping their leader or "tzadik." They would say to worship according to the Torah, but add on this one little thing--the worship of their leader or his grave.
They would come up with some religion that externally looked like Torah but in essence was the exact opposite.
The general approach has been to ignore the Gra except for the Zilverman yeshiva in Jerusalem, but I tend to think this ignoring of the Gra was and is a mistake.

Eliyahu the prophet is saying "Either this or that, but not both." That is the same thing the Gra said. Make up your mind.


[I am not sure but this whole event I think was only for Israel (the ten tribes) but not Yehuda and Benjamin. In any case the king there is the king of Israel, not the king of Judah. I do not even know if there was anyone from Judah present. So in any case we do see that even the ten tribes were still serving God. Were they allowed to go up to Jerusalem on the three festivals? Yeravam had forbidden that years before this event. In any case, you see some kind of worship of the Lord still existed in the ten tribes. The thing which is sad is not long after that the ten tribes were exiled because apparently  they were still doing idolatry even though they had listened to Eliyahu and after seeing fre fall from heaven had answered "The Lord is God, the Lord is God."]

Musar Movement

The basic idea of the Musar Movement  was not at all connected with yeshivas originally. It was simply the realization that no one is automatically moral without learning. [Moral principles are included in what is called "universals." Things that apply to different particulars.And it is characteristic of universals that they are  recognized by reason. One might need sense perception to understand the meaning of a universal, but it is reason that recognizes the principle as Michael Huemer goes into detail in his essay criticizing Ayn Rand.]

The  insight of the Musar movement was the realization that the Rishonim [authors during the Middle Ages] had an extra measure of logical rigor in understanding the principles of the Old Testament and the two Talmuds as opposed to achronim[authors after the Middle Ages.]

[This is a well established fact even though I find it very hard to get into the Rishonim without the help of the Achronim on the Gemara.
But in terms of the basic principles of Torah, achronim go off on tangents far away from Torah. Sometimes they find some odd principle that appeals to them and they decide that that principle is what the whole Torah is all about. The examples are many. Sometimes the principles they come up with are in direct opposition to Torah and sometimes they are just some minor issue that that person want to exaggerate into some big deal.]


So even though in the Musar movement itself--the disciples of Reb Israel Salanter--they also wrote books explaining  ethical principles of Torah but as a rule they are sticking with the approach of the rishonim. [That is until the second generation of Musar which then started also going off on tangents.]

worst case scenarios

In terms of preparing for worst case scenarios  I wonder which books I would consider the most important to have with me and which books  would be needed to build up Western Civilization.

I think the Rambam deals with this question in a straightforward way in his emphasis on The Written Law, the Oral Law, Physics and Metaphysics.

That is the Old Testament, the two Talmuds [the Villna Shas], the Avi Ezri of Rav Shach, some basic texts on Quantum Field Theory, Plato, Aristotle, Kant, Hegel, the Constitution of the USA.[the basic set of Musar books also  חובות לבבות ,שערי תשובה, אורחות צדיקים, מסילת ישרים ספר היראה המיוחס לר''ת]
[I put Hegel here even though there are a few people that are unhappy with him like Kierkegaard and Schopenhauer. Still to me Hegel seems pretty important.]


I have been thinking about the idea of  preparation for some time and I am not sure how to deal with the balance between being prepared and trust.  That balance is actually dealt with in the Musar of  Navardok [in one of the chapters on Trust in God]. In any case, as far as I recall, he said when the situation is in one's hands and he is able to do something, then he should.

Do genes affect behavior?

Sapolsky on the question when do genes affect behavior? People with genes that tilt them towards criminal activity, will do so in spite what the Torah says. They will simply interpret the Torah to mean what they want it to mean.

To teach children and young people good character was the actual aim of the person that started the Boys Scouts. The idea was to learn and gain good character  as a by product of doing camping and team work. This was the one of the major goals of the Musar Movement of Reb Israel Salanter.

But Reb Israel Salanter's idea was more direct. That people would gain good character by learning books of Ethics about good character.

Both ideas seem to me to have validity, and  I think to combine them would be the best approach. To have summer retreats where survival skills and Musar are both taught.

I heard there has been some suggestions to take the grave of Reb Nachman to Israel and that makes a lot of sense to me. The only trouble I foresee  is  that  the actual grave site is about 6 yards  due west of where people actually think he was buried. This was explained to me in detail by someone who knew the actual place where the grave was before it was destroyed in WWII.

The main reason this make sense is the story of Reb Nachman himself about the statue of the king with whom there had been peace in his days. To me the whole story seems to indicate this idea. Besides that the very reason Reb Nachman  wanted to be buried in Uman was so that people would have access to his grave site n order to say the ten psalms there and in general pray and learn Torah there. That would seem to apply to this situation.

Is there any authority to make extra decrees not in the Torah?

The big issue I have not addressed in general is if there is in fact any authority to make extra decrees not in the Torah and from the Commentary on Pirkei Avot from the amoraim it seems there is no such authority. This book is called אבות דר' נתן and it is included in every edition of the Vilna Shas. The basic idea there is on the Mishna "Make a fence around the Torah" and the general approach there is to say that Adam HaRishon added to the command of God [don't eat and do not touch] and that  caused him to fall. R.Yose said there "Better ten hand-breaths high that stand rather than 100 yards high that fall." There the Gra makes a few corrections to the text. I showed this to Rav Eliyahu Silverman the Rosh Yeshiva of the Aderet  Eliyahu the Yeshiva that goes by the path of the Gra in the Old City of Jerusalem and he agreed with me that that is the meaning of that commentary on the Mishna.

I brought this issue up with my learning partner and he opened up the Rambam on this issue. In any case it does look like most of the sages held there is authority to make laws that are outside of Torah Law.

And the reason I usually am lenient in those laws is because in most cases the reason for the law no longer exists--so I basically depend on the Raavad and pretty much all the Tosphot in Shas that when the reason for the law is gone, so is the law.

[For the public let me make this clear: Pirkei Avot is part of the Mishna. And in general commentary on the Mishna from the sages of the Talmud  is part of the Talmud. But for some reason this book is not included in the actual Talmud and rather comes under the category of Midrash. Another thing is that general Litvak yeshivas  are the gold standard by which everything else is measured. An example would be the Mir in NY. But the Aderet Eliyahu is unique in that it goes by the Gra in all details. That makes it the Gold Standard by which other Litvak yeshivas are measured.]