I was at the sea again and reflecting on a difficult Rambam and Aba Shaul in tractate Gitin 172. Aba Shaul said a get [document of divorce] with witnesses and no time but it says "today" is okay. The Gemara says that seems to imply that "today" means the day she brings forth the get in court. Then it pushes that off and suggests No. Perhaps he holds like R Elazar." To the Rashbam this is simple. To the Rashbam if the law goes like R Elazar [that witnesses that see the get make it valid--not the signers] then we do not need the date in the get at all. But to the Rambam this sugia subject is difficult, because he holds like R Elazar and still also holds [laws of Gitin perek I: law 25] that if there are witnesses that signed, then there must be the date also. The Avi Ezri [of Rav Shach] explains the issue thus [if I got the gist of it]: The Ravaad holds once the date is a decree from the scribes then it is part of the required formula. [Otherwise all he would need to write would be "You are allowed to any man."] But the Rambam holds the the reason for the decree is what matters--covering up for the daughter of his sister. [who he married and then she had relationships with someone else and thus should be executed for adultery, but since she is his close relative he writes a get with a date before the time of the relations.]]
So how does that help us? By 讞讝拽讛 诪注讬拽专讗 prior status. We know she was married. So until the last minute when she shows the get and we do not know when it was signed, then we assume it was at the last moment. And as Rav Shach shows in Laws of Sota from the Rashba that present status [which pushes the time backwards] only applies when there was an "act" that we do not know when it occurred. And here we know when the act of adultery happened. We just do not know what her status was at the time.
The question that has been bothering me is if this is so then why ever need a date when there are witnesses on a get [to the Rambam]? Would we now always say 讞讝拽讛 诪注讬拽专讗 prior status? And thus always say that the date of the get is always at the last minute and s there would never be a case of covering up for the daughter of his sister? I am sure Rav Shach must answer this question, but so far I have no been able to see what his answer is.
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I was at the sea again and reflecting on a difficult 专诪讘''诐 and 讗讘讗 砖讗讜诇 in 讙讬讟讬谉 拽注''讘. There 讗讘讗 砖讗讜诇 said a 讙讟 with witnesses and no 讝诪谉 转讗专讬讱 but it says "讛讬讜诐" is 讘转讜拽祝. The 讙诪专讗 says that seems to imply that "today" means the day she brings forth the 讙讟 in court. Then it pushes that off and suggests "No. Perhaps he holds like 专' 讗诇注讝专." To the 专砖讘''诐 this is simple. To the 专砖讘''诐 if the law goes like 专' 讗诇注讝专 [that witnesses that see the 讙讟 make it valid, not the signers] then we do not need the date in the 讙讟 at all. But to the 专诪讘''诐 this 住讜讙讬讗 is difficult, because he holds like 专' 讗诇注讝专 and still also holds [讛诇讻讜转 of 讙讬讟讬谉 驻拽专 讗:讻''讛 that if there are witnesses that signed, then there must be the 转讗专讬讱 also. The 讗讘讬 注讝专讬 of 专讘 砖讱] explains the issue thus: The 专讗讘''讚 holds once the date is a decree from the scribes, then it is part of the required formula [转讜专祝 讛讙讟]. [Otherwise all he would need to write would be: "You are allowed to any man."] But the 专诪讘''诐 holds the the reason for the decree is what matters: covering up for the daughter of his sister. 讞讬驻讜讬 注诇 讘转 讗讞讜转讜 [who he married and then she had 讬讞住讬诐 with someone else and thus should be executed for adultery, but since she is his close relative, he writes a 讙讟 with a 转讗专讬讱 before the time of the 讬讞住讬诐.]
So how does that help us? By 讞讝拽讛 诪注讬拽专讗. We know she was married. So until the last minute when she shows the 讙讟 and we do not know when it was signed, then we assume it was at the last moment. And as 专讘 砖讱 shows in Laws of 住讜讟讛 from the 专砖讘''讗 that present status [which pushes the time backwards] only applies when there was an "act" that we do not know when it occurred. The question botherS me is if this is so, then why ever need a date when there are witnesses on a 讙讟 [to the 专诪讘''诐]? Would we now always say 讞讝拽讛 诪注讬拽专讗 prior status? And thus always say that the date of the 讙讟 is always at the last minute, and there would never be a case of covering up for the daughter of his sister? I am sure 专讘 砖讱 must answer this question, but so far I have no been able to see what his answer is.
砖讜讘 讛讬讬转讬 讘讬诐 讜讛专讛专转讬 讘专诪讘''诐 拽砖讛 讜讘讗讘讗 砖讗讜诇 讘讙讬讟讬谉 拽注''讘. 砖诐 讗讘讗 砖讗讜诇 讗诪专 讙讟 注诐 注讚讬诐 讜讘诇讬 讝诪谉 转讗专讬讱 讗讘诇 讻转讜讘 "讛讬讜诐" 讛讜讗 讘转讜拽祝. 讛讙诪专讗 讗讜诪专转 讻讬 谞专讗讛 讻讬 "讛讬讜诐" 驻讬专讜砖讜 讛讬讜诐 讘讜 讛讬讗 诪讘讬讗讛 讗转 讛讙讟 讘讘讬转 讛诪砖驻讟. 讜讗讝 讛讙诪专讗 讚讜讞讛 讗转 讝讛 讜诪爪讬注, "诇讗. 讗讜诇讬 讛讜讗 诪讞讝讬拽 讻诪讜 专' 讗诇注讝专." 诇专砖讘''诐 讝讛 驻砖讜讟. 诇专砖讘''诐 讗诐 讛讞讜拽 讛讜诇讱 讻诪讜 专' 讗诇注讝专 [砖注讚讬诐 砖专讜讗讬诐 讗转 讛讙讟 讛讜驻讻讬诐 讗讜转讜 诇转讜拽祝, 诇讗 讛讞讜转诪讬诐] 讗讝 讗谞讞谞讜 诇讗 爪专讬讻讬诐 讗转 讛转讗专讬讱 讘讙讟 讘讻诇诇. 讗讘诇 诇专诪讘''诐 讝讛 住讜讙讬讗 拽砖讛, 讻讬 讛讜讗 诪讞讝讬拽 讻诪讜 专' 讗诇注讝专, 讜注讚讬讬谉 讙诐 诪讞讝讬拽 讘讛诇讻讜转 讙讬讟讬谉 驻专拽 讗': 讻''讛 砖讗诐 讬砖 注讚讬诐 砖讞转诪讜, 讗讝 讞讬讬讘 诇讛讬讜转 讙诐 讛转讗专讬讱. 讛讗讘讬 注讝专讬 砖诇 专讘 砖讱 诪住讘讬专 讗转 讛谞讜砖讗 讻讱: 讛专讗讘''讚 诪讞讝讬拽 讘专讙注 砖讛转讗专讬讱 讛讜讗 转拽谞讛 砖诇 讛住讜驻专讬诐, 讗讝 讛讜讗 讞诇拽 诪讛谞讜住讞讛 讛谞讚专砖转 [转讜专祝 讛讙讟]. [讗讞专转 讻诇 诪讛 砖讛讜讗 讬爪讟专讱 诇讻转讜讘 讬讛讬讛: "讗转 诪讜转专转 诇讻诇 讗讚诐."] 讗讘诇 讛专诪讘''诐 诪讞讝讬拽 砖住讬讘转 讛讙讝专讛 讛讬讗 诪讛 砖讞砖讜讘: 讻讬住讜讬 诇讘转 讗讞讜转讜. 讛讜讗 讛转讞转谉 注诐 讘转 讗讞讜转讜 讜讛讬讗 拽讬讬诪讛 讬讞住讬 诪讬谉 注诐 诪讬 砖讛讜讗 讗讞专, 讜诇讻谉 讬砖 诇讛讜爪讬讗讛 诇讛讜专讙 讘讙讬谉 谞讬讗讜祝, 讗讱 诪讻讬讜讜谉 砖讛讬讗 拽专讜讘转 诪砖驻讞转讜, 讛讜讗 讻讜转讘 讙讟 注诐 转讗专讬讱 诇驻谞讬 转拽讜驻转 讬讞住讬诐.]
讗讝 讗讬讱 讝讛 注讜讝专 诇谞讜? 讘讙诇诇 讞讝拽讛 诪注讬拽专讗. 讗谞讜 讬讜讚注讬诐 砖讛讬讗 讛讬讬转讛 谞砖讜讗讛. 讗讝 注讚 讛专讙注 讛讗讞专讜谉 讻砖讛讬讗 诪爪讬讙讛 讗转 讛讙讟, 讜讗谞讞谞讜 诇讗 讬讜讚注讬诐 诪转讬 讛讜讗 谞转谞讜, 讗讝 讗谞讜 诪谞讬讞讬诐 砖讝讛 讛讬讛 讘专讙注 讛讗讞专讜谉. 讜讻驻讬 砖专讘 砖讱 诪专讗讛 讘讛诇讻讜转 住讜讟讛 诪讛专砖讘"讗 砖讛诪注诪讚 讛谞讜讻讞讬 [砖讚讜讞祝 讗转 讛讝诪谉 诇讗讞讜专] 讞诇 专拽 讻讗砖专 讛讬讛 "诪注砖讛" 砖讗讬谞谞讜 讬讜讚注讬诐 诪转讬 讛讜讗 讛转专讞砖. 讻讗谉 讗谞讜 讬讜讚注讬诐 诪转讬 讗讬专注 诪注砖讛 讛谞讬讗讜祝. 讗谞讞谞讜 驻砖讜讟 诇讗 讬讜讚注讬诐 诪讛 讛讬讛 诪注诪讚讛 讘讗讜转讛 转拽讜驻讛. 讛砖讗诇讛 砖诪讟专讬讚讛 讗讜转讬 讗诐 讝讛 讻讱, 讗讝 诇诪讛 讘讻诇诇 爪专讬讱 转讗专讬讱 讻砖讬砖 注讚讬诐 注诇 讙讟 [诇专诪讘''诐]? 转诪讬讚 谞讙讬讚 诪注诪讚 拽讜讚诐 砖诇 讞讝拽讛 诪注讬拽专讗? 讜讻讱 转诪讬讚 谞讗诪专 砖转讗专讬讱 讛讙讟 讛讜讗 转诪讬讚 讘专讙注 讛讗讞专讜谉, 讜诇注讜诇诐 诇讗 讬讛讬讛 诪拽专讛 砖诇 讻讬住讜讬 诇讘转 讗讞讜转讜
This I included in Ideas in Shas even though I might still have to devote some more thought to this issue.