Ideas in Bava Metzia ch8-9  I deleted something that seemed a little am haaretz'dik


I would rather not go into what I deleted but in that deleted note I did make an interesting point. That There is an opinion in our Gemara that Sumchos said his din only in a case of "maybe and maybe." {איני יודע ואיני יודע}. Raba Bar Rav Huna. And we have in Bava Batra that Sumchus said his din only in a case of Drara Demomona. [That is not like our gemara in Bava Metzia page 2b].
In the Chidushim on Bava Metzia I already suggested this argument between Bava Metzia and Bava Batra is dependent on the argument between Rav and Shmuel in another place. But is it possible that Raba Bar Rav Huna understand שמא ושמא to be the very definition of דררא דממונא?  In the note I deleted I ascribed this option to the Rashbam for some reason that eludes me today. To me this minute this idea seems utterly silly. But it came inside a small paragraph where I gave n answer to R. Akiva Eigger about the opinion of the Rashbam so maybe I was thinking of something that I did not write down right?
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There is an opinion in our גמרא that סומכוס said his דין only in a case of שמא ושמא, איני יודע ואיני יודע. That is the opinion of רבה בר רב הונא.  And we have in בבא בתרא that סומכוס  said his דין only in a case of דררא דממונא. That is not like our גמרא in בבא מציעא  page ב ע''ב.
In the  I already suggested this argument between בבא מציעא and בבא בתרא is dependent on the argument between רב  and שמואל in another place. But is it possible that רבה בר רב הונא understand שמא ושמא to be the very definition of דררא דממונא?

ישנה דעה בגמרא שלנו כי סומכוס אמר את הדין שלו רק במקרה של שמא ושמא, איני יודע ואיני יודע. כך דעת של רבה בר רב הונא.  ובבבא בתרא סומכוס אמר את דינו רק במקרה של דררא דממונא. זה לא כמו  גמרא בבבא מציעא דף ב ע''ב..
כבר הצעתי  שהטיעון הזה בין בבא מציעא ובבא בתרא תלויה בויכוח בין רב ואת שמואל במקום אחר. אבל האם זה אפשרי כי רבה בר רב הונא מבין שמא ושמא להיות ההגדרה של דררא דממונא?

the temptation of the Guru is insurmountable.

When I consider Rosh Hashanah coming up and the need to repent --or even during the year when I notice that I have fallen away from God, my thoughts always wander towards Musar [Books of mediaval Ethics]and the basic path of Reb Israel Salanter. My thoughts usually go along the lines that Musar encapsulates the essence of Torah, but  I find it difficult to recommend the straight yeshiva Musar path because it is a path that has been used by people for personal aggrandizement. Still I wish could learn more Musar.
Of course for people with spiritual thirst the temptation of the Guru is insurmountable. But they can't go to Eastern religions from guilt feelings about their Jewishness. So they find some Jewish equivalent of a Guru. That the trouble with this is they somewhat clear since they have nothing to sell. No enlightenment. Still the temptations enormous,
Therefore the Gra put the whole cult into excommunication that wanted to capitalize on peoples' need for a guru. My general impression of Jewish Gurus is that they are from the Sitra Achra/the Dark Side.  The Gra certainly saw this and if I had been smart I would have simply accepted this as fact base on the idea that the Gra probably knew a thing or two about Torah more than me.

Sadly  I fell into this temptation, instead of just sticking with straight Torah. The way this happens is simple. It is not just my on or other's nativity. It is rather because there are organizations that the majority of people involved are not aware of the ultimate purpose of the organization.

to repeat one whole chapter 40 days in a row

In my fervor for learning fast I have not mentioned on my blog another way of learning that I have found effective-the forty days in a row idea. This is not a way to make a lot of progress, but it is a way that when you find some essential kernel in your learning-- to internalize it.  I did this  a few times in Joos's book Theoretical Physics  and also  in math. [Differential equations]This idea I also applied to Tosphot. [That is I would review the same Tosphot or same page of Gemara for a few weeks --every day the same material]

But with Tosphot and or the Chidushei HaRambam of Reb Chaim Soloveitchik I would usually not get up to exactly forty days.

In any case, for a person  like myself, the forty days in a row I have found helps in understanding what I learn, and also in retaining it. [That is to repeat one whole chapter 40 days in a row.]

Torah with Derech Eretz [the way of the Earth, a vocation and manners] especially Math and Physics. Exactly like the Rambam said [concerning Physics and Metaphysics.]

In the Lekutai Moharan Volume 3 chapter 8 it says on Rosh HaShanah to be in an authentic Litvak yeshiva. That is, at any rate, what the language there implies. That "The same thing that is accomplished on Rosh Hashanah is accomplished by being in a true authentic yeshiva with an authentic rosh yeshiva."

In the absence of such a thing I can understand why people come to Uman. But Reb Nachman did not say to come to his grave on Rosh Hashanah. He said to come to his grave for the ten psalms. He never mentioned Rosh Hashanah in connection with his grave.
And after all what counts as an authentic yeshiva? My own experience with yeshivas was in the red. The minus column was generally longer than the profits.[They are after all human institutions, they are not divine.] And besides that my on parents were heavily into Torah with Derech Eretz [the way of the Earth, a vocation and manners] especially Math and Physics. Exactly like the Rambam said [concerning Physics and Metaphysics.]
The weight of the evidence suggests my parents and the Rambam were right. This results in my four point approach: Gemara, Musar, Math, and Physics. In this case the Math and Physics are part of the service of God--not secular.

I have great respect for the Gra and Reb Israel Salanter and the yeshivas founded on their principles but I also have great and greater respect for my parents as the Torah itself demands and they were certainly worthy of that respect. [I do realize there are parents that do not merit much respect, but that is not relevant in my case.] Plus my own experience  suggests something is a bit off in the yeshiva world, and I am sure I am not alone in this awareness. In fact, the entire religious world seems to be a bit insane. So by theory and by experience, I come to this basic path of Torah, Math, and Physics.

(There is something troubling about the entire religious world but it is hard to put my finger on it--or to see exactly what it is. My parents got out of the problem by simply avoiding it altogether and attending a Reform Temple and sending us brothers to public school. This approach makes sense to me except that I think one needs to learn the Oral and Written Law either at home or in some Litvak yeshiva setting and to keep the Torah. But the world of the religious  is certainly farther from Torah than the Reform. It has some kind of kelipa in it.   )

The State of Israel

Dr Kelley Ross  in his essay on Israel is critical of nationalist principle.
But the Alt Right has resurrected the nationalist principle which seems to make sense to me simply based on human nature [super-organism, social meme, natural hierarchy the pecking order.] This seems to go in a Hegelian direction. And Hegel is difficult. Sometimes he is amazingly enlightening and sometimes amazingly infuriating. Still in any case it looks like  nationalism is important.

The Alt Right [Brett Stevens] has noticed that Theodore Herzl was building the idea of a State of Israel on the concept of nationalism. So nowadays when globalism is an obvious failure it seems logical to go back to nationalism as a founding principle.

[Dr Ross is very supportive of the State of Israel but more from an Enlightenment perspective rather than a nationalist principle.]

The thing that to me this all comes down to is Howard Bloom's Lucifer Principle.


The right  however is looking at this more from an ethnic principle while I a thinking more along Howard Bloom's idea of a super-organism based on a social meme--the meme in this case being Law of Moses.[i.e. the Written and Oral Law].

Music for the glory of God

s45 C Major  [this needs editing] s44 E minor Edited I think this new version of s44 is slightly better


s51 D minor 6-8 time

The hiding of God' face

What was pointed out by Nietzsche was really mentioned in the Torah itself--the problem with הסתרת פנים. {The hiding of God' face}. That is at the end of Deuteronomy. This is the reason people go to someone like Bava Sali for guidance or a blessing. It is not because they are unaware that it is better to go to God directly. Rather it is because they have gone to God directly to the best of their ability, and still have not gotten an answer.

It was pointed out to me by David Bronson that Nachmanides gives a support for this idea-that in the verses where it says, "Do not go to magicians or astrologers" -and right after that it says, "but for you God will bring a prophet."

Still what seems to me is that is  a concession to human nature. That is how Maimonides understands many of the commandments in any case.

What makes more sense to be is the idea of going to go in private prayer in a place where no one else is and asking God for his guidance just as if you would have a Bava Sali to ask.

If you have a forest nearby what you could do is make it a daily schedule to jog there and when there to spend time talking with God alone, and then jog back

Western Civilization

Western Civilization is again being invaded by barbarian hordes.

300 Spartans and a certain number of allies [I forgot how many -I think it was about 2000] stopped the Persian invasion of Helles which was close to 3 million men. It happened once. I can happen again.


 It was in fact about one Spartan per 10,000 Persian soldiers. We know the number of Persians because Xerxes made a closure that would contain 10,000 men exactly. and thus he counted his invading army. The amazing thing was a king of Sparta that had been kicked out and was advising  Xerxes told he that his army against 300 Spartans was not even a contest.[In fact the only reason the Spartans finally fell was someone betrayed their flank.]

"No problems without sin."

I realize the path of repentance is far from me. How do I know this? Well two things. One is everything in my life fell apart at a certain point, and we know from the Torah that, "There are no problems without sin." [Even though the book of Job infers differently, still this seems to be the basic approach of the Torah.]


The way that Reb Shmuel Berenbaum [the Rosh Yeshiva of the Mir yeshiva in NY] dealt with almost any problem was this, "Learn Torah."  That was his cure all for every type of difficulty that anyone brought before him. [That went along with his emphasis on not speaking Lashon Hara(slander). See the book, Chafetz Chaim for details. A very important book I might add.]

What seems right about this idea of "Learning Torah"is that, in fact, I think that repentance involves finding a basic set of rules of conduct and sticking with them. Certainly anything that I am doing wrong or have done wrong is mentioned somewhere in Oral and Written Law. In any case, I certainly have not found out what I am doing wrong.

Note: The subject of "No problems without sin" is an argument in the Talmud. But the conclusion is "There is death without sin, but never problems without sin." This comes up in Tractate Shabat.

[Even though I realize I must be far off the mark there are still a number of basic principles I have tried to stick with. Even though I realize they do not really count as true repentance for whatever I have done wrong, still they are I think good ad hoc measures, [i.e. good for the needs of the hour..]
(1) Speak the truth at all cost (2) Learn Torah , the Written and Oral Law (3) Ten Commandments, (4) the Golden Rule [Do unto other as you would have others do unto you.]..

[Some might think religious fanaticism is the answer. What religious fanatic does not think he has the absolute truth? However I never saw any good come from religious fanaticism-never. It just takes people away from the more important aspects of Torah like obligations between man and his fellow man.]

The fundamental idea of pagan religion is everything is Divine

The reason the Gra signed the excommunication was that he was against the idea of representing the Torah as a  pagan religion —

 The fundamental idea of pagan religion is everything is divine and filled with divinity. That the universe is some kind of MetaDivine realm.


Since the Gra saw people teaching this in the name of Torah he thought it would be best to make a clear distinction between Torah and pagan religion.

This obviously was ignored by the religious and so they continue to this day teaching pagan religion in the name of Torah. They get away with this scam because they disguise this in cute little rituals.

The super-organism based on some higher social meme

The super-organism based on some higher social meme-- that is the Howard Bloom formulation. He was thinking of the best model as that of the USA constitution. But as someone mentioned that politics is downstream from religion. So to me the Law of Moses is the best meme. But to Maimonides Torah is downstream from Physics. Physics is downstream from metaphysics.The question then is why would these contain a higher aspect of value? I think with Hegel it is possible to answer this question.
The absolute idea flows into metaphysics and downstream from that is physics etc. but with Hegel alone this would translate into a top to bottom system as communist systems are in fact base on Hegel

What you need to bottom to top feedback as with a Democracy.

The problem in the religious world

The problem in the religious world is every area of value deteriorates into its opposite.
What that means is when art deteriorates it becomes anti art i.e. Picasso, Music becomes anti music. Torah when it falls becomes anti Torah. And that is worse than anti art because anti Torah i.e. force of unholiness the forces of the dark side demonic forces.


The solution to this was found by the sages דרך ארץ קדמה לתורה. Derech Eretz [work and manners] comes before Torah.
Thus the Rambam says that the occupation of learning Physics and Metaphysics is above learning Torah. [This is open in the parable of the king in the state at the end of vol 3 in the Guide for the Perplexed.]
He found in these a higher kind of numinous value than Torah itself.

The simple thing would be to fire all the pseudo teachers--if only people would listen.

s43 A Major

The devotion to Torah in the Litvak world

The Haredi world ought to be divided conceptually into two parts. The Litvak (Lithuanian) yeshiva world which is basically loyal to Torah and try to keep its values. Marriage there tend to have a kind of synergy   because of devotion towards God and his Law. There are however other groups which are strict about rituals but are cults and in fact the marriages are quite abusive in both directions,

The devotion to Torah in the Litvak world tends to raise the marriages towards a transcendent goal.
There is almost nothing in the religious world that I consider kosher at all. To me they all look like cults of idolatry except for the yeshivas like Ponovitch that are clearly into straight Torah. The rest of the haredi world seem to me to be walking mummies. Dead and worshipers of the dead.

Alliances makes  a difference and the yeshiva world made a big mistake in aligning itself with what is the haredi world, They have a lot more in common with the Reform and Conservative who  who also try to keep Torah but with less emphasis  on rituals. But Reform and Conservative certainly do not worship the dead like the rest of the haredi world.

[I  was never part of Ponovitch but the general yeshiva world tended to be alike in this respect to love and devotion towards God and his Law. That is my impression anyway about pretty much anyone I met in that world. They shine with the inner light of Torah. Maybe that is just my subjective observation, but it seems to me to be real. ]

Of course it take some kind of merit to be a part of the authentic Litvak Torah world which I apparently do not have. Maybe the problem is once one walks away from it the door gets locked behind him. Or perhaps some sin causes some kind קלקול corruption in the עולמות העליונים.

In any case the religious world  is different from the yeshiva world and it is basically demon possessed. It makes a good show of keeping Torah but the inner energy is from the dark side. They are always begging money from secular Jews but when someone needs their help they always hurt when able an never help.

I tried to explain this once in some blog post that it is the result of the fact that every areas of value has an opposite area of value. Some the world of Torah when it falls it falls into anti Torah. This is the same with music or art. It it is not a phenomenon that is exclusively in the Torah world.

subversion within a group and the problems of a hierarchy.

In this essay http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/GodGrandchild.HTM Steven Dutch discusses some of the problems with subversion within.


Also he writes (http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/ComplexAdaptive.HTM):This interaction of top-down and adaptive components results in what I call the Paradox of Authority-in-Democracy. Overall, despite its failings, we live in a democratic society. Nevertheless, most of the day to day decisions in our society are made by authoritarian means. Students don't elect their teachers or vote on grading standards, workers don't elect their bosses, we don't elect our police officers or set speed limits by market means. Yet there are enough adaptive mechanisms to keep authority in check.

What Steven Dutch is seems to be saying is there is a hierarchy in any group but the group works better if there is feedback. Feedback is something you find in electrical engineering and negative feedback in  a circuit helps promote stability.

In any case hierarchy is an issue that Hegel goes into and it seems to correspond to his Metaphysics.

In any case what you see with Steven Dutch is  an unusual amount of flashes of insight,--insight that suggest solutions to great problems.  He he is suggestion that the important thing about the American Constitution is that it has feedback, and is a combination of atop to bottom and bottom to top kind of system.
One trouble with the communist system is in fact it is totally top to bottom once they get power. But they can get power because of the promises that attract people and that they do seem to keep.--to get rid of exploiters.

She was spoiling for a fight

Comment on Red Pill Girl blog:

"I vividly remember my ex. When she was having a bad day, something upset her, was spoiling for a fight that had nothing to do with us … I’d grab a rag and container of comet [soap]." CLEAN …" I would tell her. And after awhile she knew the drill. Rag and scrub and clean and make her house her home. Made her feel better. Feel settled. It worked. She’d work out her energy and feel better."


I think a lot of guys go through the same thing. They get home after a frustrating day and they find their wife just ready and raring for a fight. But if they take the soft approach, she gets more and more angry because he refuses to fight. If he takes the hard line they she gets to go to court and accuse him of abuse.
Today women have dug themselves into a deep pit- with the help of the "religious leaders" of course--the agents of the Dark Side. Religious teachers teach  but they present the  paradigm of the Sitra Achra [Dark Side] as a traditional Torah paradigm and not a  creation of their delusions.  This is far more dangerous than the overt teaching of idolatry.

The best idea that I know is that of Reb Israel Salanter--to learn Musar {Mediaeval Ethics.} but along with outdoor skills. That is to learn ethics and loyal and dependability is not just from books but from team work and practice.--That is the origin of the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. [Nowadays the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are no good. They gave up their morality for money.]

Evil religious leaders. This is a subject that  has been around. My first thought is the false prophets. Then warnings in the Talmud about the פרושים "Pharisee"-usually identified as Talmud scholars, but in fact people the Talmud criticizes as being hypocritical . But it comes up  so often that I wonder if perhaps it is not from the curse of Jeremiah since God sent us true prophets and we did not listen so he will send false prophets and to them we will listen. The trouble is this---there are true teachers but they generally are willfully ignorant about the presence of bad teachers or are quiet about this problem. In the ocean of false and bad teachers how many people are willing to state the truth fearlessly? Not many. Most teachers would loose  their livelihoods.

Here is a comment from the blog Dalrock:
 "I am the first to admit that I was a total supplicating husband (aka Kitchen Bitch) because I was fully indoctrinated into the ideology through  marriage books and programs. I bathed the kids, put them to bed, changed the diapers, washed the dishes, cooked, cleaned, and this was in addition to operating my own construction company and tending to the yard and maintenance and repairs. It caused my ex to only grow deeper and deeper into depression and misery, lose all attraction and respect for me, withdraw completely from sex and affection, ultimately divorce.\
 I watch so many couples living this out now still and I openly try to warn my friends and other husbands away from it. I subsequently have few friends and the wives are not keen on their husbands hanging out with me. The blatant feminism, divorce encouragement, cowardice of religious  leaders who  continue to promote this garbage and bow before their wives and all other women in the congregation..."



I should mention: 

There is nothing disjunctive about והוא ימשול בך “and he will rule over you and to him will be your desire” which God said to Eve is a regular Hebrew phrase and its meaning is not ambiguous.

מושל there is used many times in the Bible. One example is להשם המלוכה ומושל בגוים To God is the kingship and ruler-ship over the nations. The idea comes up also in the book of Esther the letters that were sent out by Xerxes “that ever man should rule over his own home and speak in his own language.”
Why would a pastor claim this is disjunctive when it is clearly not so is beyond me.
It could not be more clear.

Welfare is really enforced servitude of white to serve black

Nationalism mainly finds justification with Hegel and Howard Bloom. Autonomy of the individual finds justification with Kant. My own point of view is more based on the Law of Moses. That is I put the center of gravity not in the individual nor in the nation but in the Law. But in any case there are some very good points in the idea of stopping the destructive aspects of diversity and welfare etc.

Welfare is really enforced servitude of white to serve black. Diversity is really a way to undermine traditional American values.

The whole Bava Sali thing seems to have puttered out of steam. Still there are unique and special people within that tradition.  I was very impressed with one grandson of Bava Sali, Shimon Buso. But there might be others.The  daughter of Bava Sali, Mrs Buso married  fellow by the name David Buso and that is where the name come from. I am not much into the dynasty thing but in this case it looks valid to me.  My impression is it is worth the time and effort to get a blessing from Shimon Buso. [He is in Jerusalem on Shabat and Netivot during the week.]

The main thing I saw in the whole Bava Sali family was what you could call straight Torah. No "tikunim" or kabalistic stuff.
There are descendants of Reb Yaakov Abuchatzaira also around whom are certainly worthwhile to visit.

Besides that it is entirely possible the Bava Sali thing is still around. I was in Netivot for about  a year and went to Rav Montag's yeshiva for about an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening and it occurs to me today that that was a time that God granted to me a great deal of סייעתא דשמיא help from Heaven concerning the book on Bava Metzia. That is from pages 104 until page 112.

You have to do your own work to find out where the descendants of Bava Sali and Yaakov Abuchatzeira are because I do not know except for Shimon Buso.