I have been thinking about a גמרא brought in כתובות דף י''ט. There ר' נתן said if you have a case where לוי owes ראובן 100 and ראובן owes שמעון 100, you take from לוי and give to שמעון. If ראובן has a document showing that לוי owes him and לוי says it is paid already and ראובן agrees, we pay no attention to them since they might have conspired. What has been bothering me about this is that the property of לוי is anyway going to ראובן and from there to שמעון. So mainly what IS going on is the middle step. But then even more so you have the ר''ן there that asks this: Why not just collect the document from ראובן. And he answers שטרות לאו בני גוביינא נינהוא שאין גופם ממון. Documents can not be taken as payment for a loan because they are not money in themselves. The general case when someone does not pay back a loan, the court can go and get land or movable property. What was bothering me was this question and answer of the ר''ן [רבינו ניסים]. Not that I have an actual question, just a sort of question in which I am wondering what is going on? Apparently in the first case we already know that לוי owes money to ראובן. So how do we know that? By the document! So what is collecting the document going to add anything to the situation? How would it help שמעון any more than we already are helping him recover the debt?
The ר''ן here asks why not collect the document showing that לוי owes money to ראובן. I wondered why this would make any difference if we already know that he owes money. Answer: because a loan with a document is more powerful than a loan without. It gets from property that was sold after the loan was made.
The thing that makes the question of the Ran powerful is that if you have a case of a loan which is verbal, not with a document, the lender is believed if he says I paid it. However I should add that this is not the normal case of a verbal loan since here the lender would not be believed because of the possibility that he is conspiring with the middle borrower to cheat Shimon.
I have thought of a way of explaining the power of the question of the ר''ן. It seems like this: The middle person, ראובן, has a document that לוי owes him money. And שמעון has a document showing that ראובן owes him money. But ראובן has no money, nor any property that he sold after he borrowed. But he has a document showing that Levi owes him money. So none of the property of לוי would come to ראובן directly if not for the law of ר' נתן in כתובות י''ט. The point of the ר''ן is that perhaps the document of ראובן ought to be given to שמעון in which case he would have a stronger claim on לוי. As it is is now, if לוי says the document has been paid and ראובן agrees, we do not believe them because of a doubt. Maybe they are conspiring against שמעון. But if שמעון would have the document itself that shows לוי owes him money then from the basic law of loans לוי would not be believed because in the case of a loan with a document, the plea "I paid already" is not believed.
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I have been thinking about a gemara brought in Ketuboth page19. There R. Natan said if you have a case where Levi owes Reuben 100 and Reuben owes Simon 100, you take from Levi and give to Simon. If Reuben has a document showing that Levi owes him and Levi says it is paid already and Reuben agrees, we pay no attention to them since they might have conspired. What has been bothering me about this is that the property of Levi is anyway going to Reuben and from there to Simon. So mainly what i going on is the middle step. But then even more so you have the Ran there that asks this: Why not just collect the document from Reuben. And he answers שטרות לאו בני גוביינא נינהוא שאין גופם ממון. Documents can not be taken as payment for a loan because they are not money in themselves. [The general case when someone does not pay back a loan, the court can go and get land or movable property]
What was bothering me at the beach the whole day was this question and answer of the Ran [Rabbainu Nisim]. Not that I have an actual question, just a sort of question in which I am wondering what is going on? Apparently in the first case we already know that Levi owes money to Reuben. So how do we know that? By the document! So what is collecting the document going to add anything to the situation? [How would it help Simon any more than we already are helping him recover the debt?]
The ר''ן here asks why not collect the document showing that לוי owes money to ראובן. I wondered why this would make any difference if we already know that he owes money. Answer: because a loan with a document is more powerful than a loan without. It gets from property that was sold after the loan was made.
The thing that makes the question of the ר''ן powerful is that if you have a case of a loan which is verbal, not with a document, the lender is believed if he says, "I paid it." However I should add that this is not the normal case of a verbal loan, since here the lender would not be believed because of the possibility that he is conspiring with the middle borrower to cheat שמעון.
I have thought of a way of explaining the power of the question of the Ran. It seems like this: The middle person Reuven has a document that Levi owes him money. And Shimon has a document showing that Reuven owes him money. But Reuven ha no money nor any property that he sold after he borrowed. But he has a document showing that Levi owes him money. So none of the property of Levi would come to Reuven directly if not for the law of R. Natan in Ketuboth 19. The point of the Ran is that perhaps the document of Reuven ought to be given to Shimon in which case he would have a stronger claim on Levi. As it is is now, if Levi says the document has been paid and Reuven agrees , we do not believe them because of a doubt. Maybe they are conspiring against Shimon. But if Shimon would have the document itself that shows Levi owes him money then from the basic law of loans Levi would not be believed because in the case of a loan with a document, the plea "I paid already" is not believed.
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חשבתי על גמרא שהובאה בכתובות דף י''ט. שם ר' נתן אמר אם יש לך מקרה שבו לוי חייב לראובן 100 וראובן חייב לשמעון 100, אתה לוקח מלוי ונותן לשמעון. אם לראובן יש מסמך שמראה שלוי חייב לו ולוי אומר שזה כבר שולם וראובן מסכים, אנחנו לא שמים לב אליהם כי ייתכן שהם קשרו קשר. מה שהפריע לי בזה הוא שהרכוש של לוי ממילא הולך לראובן ומשם לשמעון. אז בעיקר מה שקורה הוא הצעד האמצעי. אבל אז עוד יותר יש לך את הר''ן שם ששואל את זה: למה לא פשוט לאסוף את המסמך מראובן. והוא עונה שטרות לאו בני גוביינא נינהוא שאין גופם ממון. לא ניתן לקחת מסמכים כתשלום עבור הלוואה כי הם אינם כסף בפני עצמם. במקרה הכללי כאשר מישהו לא מחזיר הלוואה, בית המשפט יכול ללכת לקבל קרקע או מטלטלין. מה שהפריע לי זו השאלה והתשובה של הר''ן [רבינו ניסים]. לא שיש לי שאלה ממשית, רק מעין שאלה שבה אני תוהה מה קורה? כנראה שבמקרה הראשון אנחנו כבר יודעים שלוי חייב כסף לראובן. אז איך אנחנו יודעים את זה? לפי המסמך! אז מה איסוף המסמך יוסיף משהו למצב? איך זה יעזור לשמעון יותר ממה שאנחנו כבר עוזרים לו לגבות את החוב?
