The effects of any given system. Does it really lead to the great things it promises?

In every generation there is a system  that promises that it is the solution to human problems if only people would accept it. That system is so powerful that its pull is almost impossible to resist. An example is Socialism. About a hundred years ago this was thought to be the solution to all human problems. Even the greatest of intellects actively advocated it. But then that subsided, and then spiritual systems were thought to provide the answers to all questions.   The systems were different, but the idea was the same. Some spiritual system was thought to be the absolute truth-- such that if everyone would accept it, all human problems would disappear.

These are just two examples. But there are others. In any case, in every instance the system that presented itself as the solution ended up being the cause of all human problems. It turned out people would have been better off with no system at all rather that the illusion of one that was thought to be the solution.
[No matter however. Once a person has accepted that system there is no going back. All the evidence in the world will not change his mind. Only later on generations will see the foolishness of the whole thing.]

[One thing I should mention: I am not against Numinous Value. Rather I think it is beyond Pure Reason. So it does not fit squarely into a definable box.  Rather it is like an electron that can be condensed into a particle state only by superposition of many k states [different value of k or momentum..So what I think is rather that one needs a balance of values.]
But while striving for a balance of values often one can fall into the Sitra Akra the Dark Side.. And most often happens by trying to do good. Like the Gra said in Proverbs that the Sitra Akra seduces to sin by means of suggesting to do some good deed. Which leaves one with the question then what can one use for a yardstick?
The thing to do is to identify the major practices to do daily and the major things to avoid. This might be a combination of common sense,  learning from history about the effects of any given system. Does it really lead to the great things it promises?]

My basic approximation of the right path is to look for examples of human excellence like I saw in my parents. Also to follow the path of the Gra as closely as possible--to learn Torah and to have trust in God and to be careful to take his signature on the letter of excommunication as being based on  objective truth. Not some kind of mistake based on faulty information. But rather based on fact.]

There is  a story of the Cock and the Horses. The cock was put to roost in the stable among the horses; and there being no racks or other conveniences for him, it seems, he was forced to roost upon the ground. The horses jostling about for room, and putting the cock in danger of his life, he gives them this grave advice, “Pray, Gentlefolks! let us stand still! for fear we should tread upon one another!”
  There are some people in the world, who, now they are unperched, and reduced to an equality with other people, and under strong and very just apprehensions of being further treated as they deserve, begin, with the cock, to preach up peace and union and the duty of moderation; forgetting that, when they had the power in their hands, those virtues were strangers in their gates!

Even though we tend to look at sins as being separate. On the Day of Atonement we go through a long list. Still I tend to think that they are all connected. A first sin causes the second and so on. But not just that but that in their essence they all boil own to the same thing. Some kind of particular attitude. It might be some small thing that leads to big consequences. Like for the loss of a nail the shoe was lost as that old rhyme goes until it finishes for loss of the battle the kingdom was lost.

It might be some ignoring of the advice of the Gra about the importance of learning Torah and trust in God.  Or other things the Gra emphasized or the books of Musar.

The problem is how to find the right balance. For the sharp blade of fanaticism cuts as deeply and wounds as grievously as any other, and often much worse. 

I learned in Organic Chemistry that a molecule of fat takes twice the energy to break down than a molecule of sugar. After I was in the hospital for a month, my stomach started hurting very badly, and I went to the regional hospital where they gave me four medicines.  They worked immediately. But then recently my stomach stated hurting again, and I went there again. There was only one doctor working, so the line was so long I realized I would be there for  a very long time until the doctor would see me. So I went to the nurses, and they said either tomorrow or Monday there will be three doctors working. [In Uman the "Regional hospital" has a better reputation than the Uman Hospital. However I have had excellent care in the Uman hospital. Both for a kidney stone and my broken foot. However I still decided to go to the regional hospital for my stomach pains. I do not think I could have had better care anywhere in the world.]

So  went back home and on the way back the taxi driver told me he had the same problem and the main thing he said is to stop having fried foods and no fat. Rather vegetables --like a vegetable soup with beets, carrots, potatoes, water and salt and spice [what they call petrushka-- green leaves] but no oil.

David Bronson said something like that in relation to bread that causes the walls of the intestine to expand and makes it harder to digest food. I think David Bronson always has good advice but n this case I think it is too many fat molecules that cause the problem.

My basic impression of the idea of Reb Israel Salanter about the importance of learning Ethics is positive. But like all human systems it can be corrupted. Abuse does not cancel use. Abusus non tollit Usum.

There is something in fact not just about Musar [Ethics] but the emphasis of Musar from the  Middle Ages.


The most relevant questions in one's life are sometimes hard to define. What are the proper questions to ask in the first place. All the more so it is hard to find the proper answers. In older times people would go to some wise man. After the Reformation people would look into the Bible directly.
Also in old times people would try to find the answers in faith. After the Enlightenment people would look for the answers in Reason.

Since the Dark Side is so able to confuse and subvert even good answers to the proper questions, there does not seem to be any accurate guide or yardstick.


There are public questions and personal questions and sometimes they overlap. Still how can one find an answer that works and is accord with reason and faith and not be fooled by the Sitra Akra, the Dark Side?

The thing to do is not to prove or disprove a doctrine, but to ask what are the logical results. What are the results in the past as seen in people that follow that path.

Reason together with faith may not provide all the answers, but it is better than anything else out there. Musar Ethics of the Middle Ages provides the best ground for a synthesis between Reason and Faith and by doing so provides the best answers to human problems.

[What I am getting at is that the first thing is to learn the Books of Ethics from the Middle Ages staring from Obligations of the Heart. Then to go to post Rishonim books like מסילת ישרים.] 

בבא בתרא ע''ו ע''א

ר' יהודה הנשיא holds the opinion that a ship is acquired by מסירה. However ר' נתן holds by pulling.

אביי ורבא said מסירה works in a public domain and משיכה works as a mode of acquisition in an alley. My question is this. If we would go with ר' יהודה הנשיא then how could you ever acquire a ship in an alley?  And if we would be going with ר' נתן, then how could one ever acquire a ship in a public domain?  Now you have to limit the scope of this question. If the ר''י is right that משיכה works everywhere, then to ר' יהודה הנשיא how could you acquire a ship in an alley? If ר' תם is right that מסירה is more powerful then to ר' נתן how could you ever acquire a ship in a public domain? Now to some degree these questions are dealt with. The ראשונים say where one kind of mode is not possible, then you do the other kind. But then what is the point of saying how a ship is acquired at all?


ר' יהודה הנשיא מחזיק בדעה שספינה נקנית במסירה. אולם ר' נתן מחזיק  על ידי משיכה. אביי ורבא סוברים מסירה עובדת בתחום ציבורי ומשיכה עובדת כאופן רכישה בסמטה. השאלה שלי היא כזאת. אם היינו הולכים עם ר' יהודה הנשיא אז איך יכול אי פעם לרכוש ספינה בסמטה? ואם היינו הולכים עם ר' נתן, אז איך יכול אי פעם אחת לרכוש ספינה ברשות הציבור? עכשיו אתה צריך להגביל את היקף השאלה הזאת. אם הר''י נכון כי משיכה עובדת בכל מקום, אז אל ר' יהודה הנשיא איך אפשר לרכוש ספינה בסמטה? אם ר' תם נכון כי מסירה הוא יותר חזקה, אז לר' נתן איך אתה יכול בכלל לרכוש ספינה ברשות הציבור? עכשיו במידה מסוימת השאלות הן מטופלות. הראשונים סוברים היכן שסוג אחד של רכישה בלתי אפשרי, אז אתה עושה את הסוג השני. אבל אז מה הטעם לומר איך ספינה נקנית בכלל

Bava Batra 76a A question in the Gemara.

R.Yehuda Hanasi said a ship is acquired by handing over. R. Natan said by pulling.

Abyee and Rava said handing over works in a public domain and pulling works as a mode of acquisition in an alley.

The kind of obvious question David Bronson, my learning partner, would ask is if we would go with R Yehuda then how could you ever acquire a ship in an alley.  And if we would be going with R. Natan then how could one ever acquire a ship in a public domain? 

Now you have to limit the scope of this question. If the Ri is right that pulling works everywhere then to R Yehuda how could you acquire a ship in an alley?

If R. Tam is right that handing over is more powerful then to R Natan how could you ever acquire a ship in a public domain?

Now to some degree these questions are dealt with. The Rishonim say where one kind of mode is not possible then you do the other kind. But then what is the point of saying how a ship is acquired at all?

In answer to the question I raised yesterday about Tosphot in Bava Batra  page 76a.
What the Ri means to say is this: The Gemara puts the argument between R. Yehuda Hanasi and the sages in a public domain. But that leads to a problem in understanding the sages. We have to say that they mean pulling from a public domain into an alley because there is no kind of acquisition by pulling in a public domain. But if R. Tam would be right that handing over works in an alley then we could say the argument between R Yehuda Hanasi an the sages is simply in alley in the first place and that they are arguing about when the owner said Go and pull as we do say anyway later. This in no way disagrees with what the Gemara is trying to say now that there ought not to be an argument between R Yehuda Hanasi and the two sages R. Natan and the first opinion of R Natan. The Gemara was suggesting ספינה נמי תיקני במסירה, let the ship be acquired by handing over  means that instead of those two sages saying the ship is acquired by pulling let them agree with R Yehuda Hanasi that it is acquired by handing over.


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In answer to the question I raised yesterday about ר''י in תוספות בבא בתרא דף ע''ו ע''א
What the ר''י means to say is this: The גמרא puts the argument between ר' יהודה הנשיא and the sages in a public domain. But that leads to a problem in understanding the חכמים. We have to say that they mean pulling from a public domain into an alley because there is no kind of acquisition by משיכה in a public domain. But if ר' תם would be right that מסירה works in an alley, then we could say the argument between ר' יהודה הנשיא and the sages is in an alley in the first place, and that they are arguing about when the owner said go and pull, as we do say anyway later (in a public domain) . This in no way disagrees with what the גמרא is trying to say now that there is no argument between ר' יהודה הנשיא and the two sages ר' נתן  and the first opinion of ר' נתן . The גמרא was suggesting ספינה נמי תיקני במסירה, let the ship be acquired by handing over  means that instead of those two sages saying the ship is acquired by pulling, Rather let them agree with ר' יהודה הנשיא that it is acquired by handing over.

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בתשובה לשאלה שהרמתי על ר''י בתוספות בבא בתרא דף ע''ו ע''א.  הר''י רוצה להגיד את זה: הגמרא מעמידה את הטיעון בין ר' יהודה הנשיא והחכמים בתוך מרחב ציבורי. אבל זה מוביל לבעיה בהבנת החכמים. אנחנו חייבים לומר כי הם מתכוונים למשוך מן מרחב הציבורי אל תוך סמטה כי אין סוג של רכישה על ידי משיכה בתוך מרחב ציבורי. אבל אם ר' תם יהיה תקין כי מסירה עובדת בסמטה, אז נוכל לומר הטיעון בין ר' יהודה הנשיא והחכמים הוא בסמטה מלכתחילה, וכי הם מתווכחים כאשר הבעלים אמרו ללכת למשוך (אם יש הקפדה), כפי שאנו אומרים בכל מקרה אחר כך (בתוך תחום ציבורי). זה בשום אופן לא חולק עם מה שהגמרא מנסה לשאול כעת למה יהיה ויכוח בין ר' יהודה הנשיא ושני החכמים ר' נתן ואת הדעה הראשונה של ר' נתן (התנא קמא). הם אמרו משיכה ור' יהודה אמר מסירה. למה יש ויכוח