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25.8.22

Here is a proof for Tosphot as opposed to the Rambam and the Ran. 

For to Tosphot, the reason to say, ''It was written and signed before me''  [בפני נכתב ובפני נחתם] is a קולא leniency. We are being lenient to allow the שליח  to say this instead of requiring a full validation of the signatures.הקילו משום עגונה

To the Ran and Rambam, the reason to say בפני נכתב ובפני נחתם is a חומרא.We are being extra strict and taking an extra precaution for a worry that really should not be  a worry.

But two gemaras in Gitin page 5 seem to show that Tosphot is right. For there we have a teaching: ''One who brings a divorce [get] from outside of Israel and does not say  בפני נכתב ובפני נחתם one must validate the divorce [get\] or else it is considered as null and void.'' The gemara asks from this on Rabah. But no matter how the answer for Rabah turns out, in both answers the final result of the teaching is clear that without validation, the divorce is null. So validation is not just an extra precaution. It is a absolute law. Only because we want to be lenient for an woman with a husband  do we allow  בפני נכתב ובפני נחתם  to stand in for validation. but without that . validation is an absolute requirement.

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Here is a proof for תוספות as opposed to the ר''ן ורמב''ם. For to תוספות the reason to say בפני נכתב ובפני נחתם is a קולא. We are being lenient to allow the שליח  to say this instead of requiring a full validation (קיום) of the signatures.הקילו משום עגונה

To the ר''ן and רמב''ם the reason to say בפני נכתב ובפני נחתם is a חומרא.We are being extra strict and taking an extra precaution for a worry that really should not be  a worry.

But two גמרות in גיטון דף ה' seem to show that תוספות is right. For there we have a ברייתא: one who brings a גט  from outside of Israel and does not say  בפני נכתב ובפני נחתם one must validate the גט or else it is considered as null and void. The gגמרא asks from this on רבה. But no matter how the answer for רבה turns out, in both answers, the final result of the ברייתא is clear that without validation the גט is null. so validation is not just an extra precaution. it is a din. only because we want to be lenient for an עגונה do we allow  בפני נכתב ובפני נחתם  to stand in for validation. But without that. validation is an absolute requirement.

הנה הוכחה לתוספות בניגוד לר''ן ורמב''ם. כי לתוספות הסיבה לומר בפני נכתב ובפני נחתם היא קולא. אנו מקילים לאפשר לשליח לומר זאת במקום לדרוש אימות מלא (קיום) של החתימות. הקילו משום עגונה לר''ן ולרמב''ם הסיבה לומר בפני נכתב ובפני נחתם היא חומרא. אנחנו מחמירים במיוחד ונוקטים אמצעי זהירות נוסף לדאגה שבאמת לא צריכה להיות דאגה. אבל נראה ששתי גמרות בגיטין דף ה' מראות שתוספות צודקים. שהרי שם יש לנו ברייתא: המביא גט מחוץ לארץ לישראל ואינו אומר בפני נכתב ובפני נחתם צריכים לאמת את הגט, אחרת הוא נחשב בטל ומבוטל. הגמרא שואלת מכאן על רבה. אבל לא משנה איך תתברר התשובה לרבה, בשתי התשובות, התוצאה הסופית של הברייתא ברורה שללא אימות הגט בטל. אז אימות הוא לא רק אמצעי זהירות נווסף. זה דין. רק בגלל שאנחנו רוצים להיות סלחניים עבור עגונה, אנחנו מאפשרים בפני נכתב ובפני נחתם לעמוד במקום אימות קיום. אבל בלי זה. אימות הוא דרישה מוחלטת. הרמב''ם מחזיק בשיטה שמעיקר הדין אין חשש זיוף אלא בגלל חשש שמא יבוא הבעל ויער על הויוציא לעז על הגט השליח צריך לומר בפני נכתב ובפני נחתם . זה בסוף פרק ז' בהלכות גירושין







 I was in Breslov yesterday and I heard someone learning Zohar. I did not say anything to him about the question of it's validity because I think that some  parts are taken from earlier documents of mystics that were later incorporated into it. Still at the same time he was learning Zohar, I was learning the part in the major book of Rav Nahman about גם בהתקרבות להשם יש יצר הרע של התלהבות יותר מדאי (Also in coming close to God there is a evil inclination of overdoing it.--getting overly fanatic.) And that you see with people that get involved with Zohar.

[The main  issue with the Zohar is the phrase 'even though' עם כל דא which is a phrase from the middle ages. It is used all over the Zohar. It was made by the Ibn Tibon family to replace an older form of saying 'even though' which was אף על פי or אף על גב/ So it was not written by R. Shimon ben Yochai.]

While it is true that many great sages held of the validity of the Zohar, still this historic information was not available at the time.


24.8.22

 Rav Nahman says in the Le.M  vol I:72 that even in coming close to God one needs to be wary of ריבוי אור [excess light or excess excitement. ] This I think accounts for the fanaticism of the religious world

[The same theme is brought in the LeM vol II chapter 5:7 and  chapter 9] 

But in addition i thin the problem with Torah scholars that are demonsa adds to the issue. And that aspect of things is brought up a lot more in the LeM , but not in just so many words, The only times you see this in the LeM explicitly are in Lem I 12 and LeM I 28.


 I have to say that my approach to the State of Israel is based on Rav Moshe Feinstein and Rav Aaron Kotler. [I am probably repeating myself here, but still I do not recall mentioning this for a long time.] So let me just make clear that oth of these great sages of Torah said: "דינא דמלכותא דינא".The law of the state is the law. [In other words, the State of Israel is a legitimate state like any other legitimate state.] But I know that Neturaai Karta try to make it out  as if the State of Israel is worse than other states.--as if they are all pure and holy and just Israel is ssoehow born in sin. And they bring proof that within the origins of the sstate you find that peple that were trying to bring Jews to Israel [IN opposition to the British] did not want to help the religious Jews. And I assume this to be in fact the case in Europe. [Obviously this was not the case in Sephardi lands]. But so what? The religious always do as much damage as possible to secular Jews. It is just tit for tat. [I know this all too well from long and sad personal experience. I might consider myself to e ssomewhat religious and I certainly love Torah and do my best to keep it-- but as far as the religious world is considered I am not part of their club. And the rest of the story is too sad to relate.

[just for the record I should mention that Torah and the religious are two opposites.]]

23.8.22

 One thing i noticed in Livy--that self confidence does not always win. In fact that seems to be a major theme of the  war with Hannibal. One Roman general after the other thought that they would just walk in and wipe the mat with Hannibal. Little did they know. Hubris before a fall. While it is true that Rome won in the end, but thtat was by the policy of Fabius--to avoid direct battle as much as possible. To wear him down by attrition.

19.8.22

 This may not seem like  big deal but I  have been thinking about the fact that a courier of a divorce document outside of Israel has to declare "It was written and signed in front of me." There is an argument between the Raaavad and the Rambam if a a divorce ought to require verification. That is normally any document that comes into court has to be verified. [e.g, loans].So why not here? There is a difference in the reasons given for this. It seems to me that the Raavad and Tosphot are parallels. Because Tosphot says the reason he has to say ''it was written and signed before me'' is to be lenient. that is--really we ought to require complete verification, [Laws of Divorse 12:2] but here we are being lenient in order to make things easy for her. הקילו משום עגונה.  But to the Rambam there really ought to be no requirement to verify the validity of the doc since this is not a case of laws about money and also because she would not ruin her second marriage by forging a divorce. So having to say ''it was written and signed before me'' is add a "humra" extra requirement  

The main idea here is just to show that Tosphot and the Raavad fit together. I am not dealing with the Rambam except to show that he is not like Tosphot.

[This occurred to me this morning on the way to the sea, but I did not work it out completely until now,]

[it does not seem needed, but perhaps for additional clarity -there are obviously monetary issues in a ''get'' but the Rambam considers them as a collateral issue.

However I just saw Rav Shach on this subject and he sees a difference between the Raavad and Tosphot.{Laws of Divorce chapter 7. Law 1}

  

A שליח הגט בחוץ לארץ  has to declare "בפני נכב ובפני נחתם." There is an argument between the ראב''ד and the רמב''ם if a a גט ought to require verification. That is normally any document that comes into court has to be verified. [e.g, loans].So why not here? There is a difference in the reasons given for this. It seems to me that the ראב''ד and תוספות are parallels. Because תוספות says the reason he has to say ''"בפני נכב ובפני נחתם' is to be מקיל. that is--really we ought to require complete verification, but here we are being lenient in order to make things easy for her. הקילו משום עיגונה.  But to the רמב''ם there really ought to be no requirement to verify the validity of the doc since this is not a case of laws about money and also because she would not ruin her second marriage by forging a divorce. So having to say ''"בפני נכב ובפני נחתם'' is add a חומרא extra requirement  

שליח הגט בחוץ לארץ צריך להכריז "בפני נכתב ובפני נחתם". יש ויכוח בין הראב''ד לרמב''ם אם גט צריך אימות [קיום]. בדרך כלל כל מסמך שמגיע לבית המשפט צריך להיות מאומת. [לדוגמה, הלוואות]. אז למה לא כאן? יש הבדל בסיבות שניתנו לכך. נראה לי שהראב''ד (הלכות גירושין י''ב הלכה ב') והתוספות מקבילים. כי תוספות אומר שהסיבה שהוא צריך לומר ''"בפני נכתב ובפני נחתם" היא להיות מקיל. כלומר - באמת צריך לדרוש אימות מלא אבל כאן אנחנו מקילים כדי להקל עליה משום עיגונה. אבל לרמב"ם באמת לא צריך להיות דרישה לאמת את תקפות הגט שכן אין מדובר בדיני ממונות וכן משום שהיא לא תהרוס את נישואיה השניים בזיוף גט. הצורך לומר ''בפני נכתב ובפני נחתם'' הוא הוספת דרישה נוספת



I might add here that I heard from Rav Shmuel Berenbaum [a rosh yeshiva at the Mir] that there is קניין אישות וקניין כסף in acquiring a wife. [there are monetary obligation for both husband and wife.] so the Raavad here is going like this idea\that since there are monetary obligation in a divorce--like giving the ketubah-so the document does need validation.