fanaticism is not the path of Torah

Hegel  noted that philosophy tends to be one sided because each philosophy is  a reaction to what came before it. A similar tendency I noted with numinous value. One generation reacts against the over amount of abuse on one side of things and goes overboard on being secular. Then the next generation sees the problem with that, and overreacts and goes in the opposite direction.

The ideal is to find the right balance of values.

[I mean to say like Reb Nahman from Breslov suggested that over excitement in the service of God is also an evil inclination. That is to say fanaticism is not the path of Torah. As God told Moses to warn the people not to go up into the mountain or even to touch it. Saloplsky  says the same exact thing about obsession with numinous value is a sign of  a schizoid personality. That is a whole long lecture in his series.]

The problem with exact rules and an order of daily sessions in the service of God is the subject object aspect that Kant brings. That is objective rules will apply to different people according to their root souls and essential traits and tendencies differently.
Still there are general principles that apply across the board. To have good traits (Midot Tovot).
But plenty of things that at first glance might seem to be worthy practices can often be distractions -to divert one's attention from what is really important.

כל הדרכים בחזקת סכנה All paths are dangerous. No path in the service of God is safe. There are no guarantees.

In the book of Job we find that the Satan is constantly going around the world to see whom he can trick an seduce and fool to think good is evil and evil good. The most dangerous thing is to imagine that one is immune.

[Still the best set of guidelines that I know about is the basic path of Musar. That is to learn the essential set of Medieval Musar books that are well known in Litvak yeshivas.]

U-62 E Flat Major  U-64 D Minor   

U-62 in midi format   u62 nwc  u64 in midi format  u64 nwc

If one marries a girl he thinks is a virgin and it turns out she is not then  one opinion is she is not married. Another is she loses the כתובה of מאתים and gets only מנה. Or gets no כתובה at all?

In terms of a regular מקח טעות [purchase by mistake] there seems to be a similar disagreement of opinion in בבא בתרא צ''ב ע''ב. If one buys an ox for plowing and it turns out to be unsuitable because it is not tamable. So the deal is off, but what about the money given to the seller. Does he owe the money as would a borrower? Or is there not deal at all and if he spends he money it is considered that he is  a מזיק? The רשב''ם considers that money is owed even though he thinks of the seller as a מזיק. That is confusing enough all by itself. If the seller is  a מזיק, then it ought to be the case that if the money is still around, then he gives it back; and if not, he pays like any מזיק. And that is in fact exactly what the ר''י says. Thus it is in fact hard to know what the רשב''ם is thinking here. The רשב''ם brings from a ר' חננאל  and that ר' חננאל does seem to consider the  מקח טעות  as being akin to a regular debt. That  is the seller pays back money if he has and שווה כסף if not. That at least makes sense. In any case, what I am trying to say is if the seller is considered to be a מזיק that means he does not own the money. So before he spends the money, it still belongs to the buyer. So then why would it not make a difference if he gives back that money or other money? If the seller would be thought to be a בעל חוב, then I can understand why giving back any money is the same as giving back the actual coins of the transaction. But if he is thought to be a מזיק then the coins were not his at any time.


אם אחד מתחתן עם נערה שהוא חושב היא בתולה ומתברר שהיא לא אז דעה אחת היא שהיא לא נשואה. דעה אחרת היא שהיא רק מאבדת את הכתובה של מאתים ומקבלת רק מנה. או אולי אינה מקבלת שום כתובה בכלל? במונחים של מקח טעות רגיל [רכישה בטעות] נראה שיש חילוקי דעות דומות לאלו הדעות בבבא בתרא צ''ב ע''ב. אם אחד קונה שור לחריש ומתברר כי הוא אינו מתאים משום שהוא אינו בַּר אִלוּף. אז העסקה מבוטלת, אבל מה עם הכסף הנתון למוכר. האם הוא חייב את הכסף כלווה? או האם הוא נחשב כמזיק? הרשב''ם סבור כי  המוכר נחשב מזיק, אבל לא משנה איזה כסף הוא מחזיר. אם המוכר הוא מזיק, אז זה צריך להיות כך שאם הכסף הוא עדיין ברשותו, אז הוא מחזיר אותו; ואם לא, הוא משלם כמו כל מזיק. וזה למעשה בדיוק מה ר''י אומר. לכן קשה לדעת מה הרשב''ם חושב כאן. רשב''ם מביא מן ר' חננאל וכי ר' חננאל כנראה שוקל את המקח טעות כמו חוב רגיל. כלומר המוכר משלם כסף [איזה כסף שיהיה] אם יש לו, ואת שווה כסף אם לא. זה הגיוני. בכל מקרה, מה שאני מנסה לומר הוא שאם המוכר נחשב להיות כמזיק זה אומר שהוא אינו בעלים של הכסף. אז לפני שהוא מוציא את הכסף, זה עדיין שייך לקונה. אז למה זה לא משנה אם הוא נותן בחזרה את כסף או כסף אחר? אם המוכר יהיה נחשב להיות בעל חוב, אז אני יכול להבין למה להחזיר איזה כסף זהה להחזיר את המטבעות בפועל של העסקה. אבל אם הוא נחשב להיות מזיק המטבעות לא היו שלו.  

I do not have a Gemara Ketuboth. However I recall the issue over there if one marries a girl he thinks is a virgin and it turns out she is not that one opinion is she is not married. Another is she loses the Ketubah of 200 and gets only 100. [Or gets no Ketubah at all?]

In terms of a regular מקח טעות [purchase by mistake] there seems to be a similar disagreement of opinion in Bava Batra 92

If one buys an ox for plowing and it turns out to be unsuitable because it is not tamable. So the deal is off, but what about the money given to the seller. Does he owe the money as would a borrower? Or is there no deal at all, and if he spends he money, it is considered that he is  a מזיק [a person that causes damage]?

The Rashbam considers that money is owed even though he thinks of the seller as a מזיק [one that causes damage]. That is confusing enough all by itself. If the seller is  a מזיק [damager], then it ought to be that if the money is still around, then he gives it back;- and if not, he pays like any מזיק [damager]. And that is in fact exactly what the Ri says.

Thus it is in fact hard to know what the Rashbam is thinking here.

The Rashbam brings from a Rav Hananel from Rome [not the other famous one that I think taught the Rif.] and that Rav Hananel does seem to consider the  מקח טעות {a deal done by mistake} as being akin to a regular debt. That  is the seller pays back money if he has and שווה כסף if not.That at least makes sense.

To be short I am not sure how to understand the Rashbam and I also wonder if in fact one can tie this into the case in Ketuboth.

[I also am wondering why when I was learning Ketuboth in Shar Yashuv in NY that the connection with Bava Batra escaped me. To me today it seems highly relevant.]

In any case what I am trying to say is if the seller is considered to be a מזיק that means he does not own the money until he spends it. So before he spends it it still belongs to the buyer. So then why would it not make a difference if he gives back that money or other money? If the seller would be thought to be a בעל חוב then I can understand why giving back any money is the same as giving back the actual coins of the transaction. But if he is thought to be a מזיק the the coins were not his at any time. {I figure there must be an answer for this but it escapes me this minute.}

Rav Avraham Abulafia

Even though Christians take it as a given that Jewish mystics are off limits, still to me it seems that they are by that missing a key element of support for their position.

One example I have mentioned before is Rav Avraham Abulafia. However it was pointed out to me that Rav Abulafia's position is not all that clear.

Another key element of support for their position is the Ari, Rav Isaac Luria. The one place I recall off hand is in one of the books of Reb Haim Vital on the Torah on the very last verses of Genesis concerning Joseph HaTzadik. However in all the writings of the Ari I think there are about three places where those same verses are explained, and I recall the same kind of approach of the Ari in all three places.


The reason I did not take it as a proof against the Christian position the comment of Rav Abulafia concerning the numerical value [Gematria] is mainly that that same kind of proof by means of Gematria is used for Moses himself and other tzadikm to claim זה לעומת זה [this one against that one] in many places. I do not have off hand any examples because I simply am not learning any of this stuff nowadays at all, and have not been learning it for many years. [One example with Moses is משה גימטריה שמ''ד with the value of the word itself being one.]




I could also bring a few proofs for Rav Joseph Karo concerning his opinion on גרי השער {Converts of the Gate} as a different category from גר תושב [a stranger that dwells in the Land] but I do not happen to have that responsa at my fingertips. [The issue over there was that גר תושב is one category but Rav Joseph Karo apparently found some support in the Rishonim that Christians occupy a higher category called גרי השער  Converts of the Gates. ]

At any rate, it is clear that there is some advantage in believing in a true tzadik as mentioned in Pirkei Avot אמונת חכמים (faith in the wise).


Lots of people I should mention have אמונת חכמים faith in the wise  The point is to be able to discern who is a real tzadik. That kind of discernment is hard to come by. So what you might do is take the word of people that are more or less well known to have a kind of perception in that area. That is why I take the word of the Ari and Rav Abulafia and the Gra as evidence.
[My position about the Ari is very positive. However in learning the Ari there is dangerous pitfall. If one can learn the Ari while avoiding the groups under the excommunication of the Gra that is the only way I know that one can come out safe from the whole thing. Otherwise interest in the Ari most often leads people into the Dark Side. Reb Nahman however I think is not under that excommunication for the simple reason that the actual letter of excommunication is more specific than most people realize. And the Ran from Breslov besides that was in fact a great tzadik.]

The trouble is that the Dark Side has managed to wiggle itself into the Torah world to the degree that there is no escape except to the Reform or Conservative.

The effects of any given system. Does it really lead to the great things it promises?

In every generation there is a system  that promises that it is the solution to human problems if only people would accept it. That system is so powerful that its pull is almost impossible to resist. An example is Socialism. About a hundred years ago this was thought to be the solution to all human problems. Even the greatest of intellects actively advocated it. But then that subsided, and then spiritual systems were thought to provide the answers to all questions.   The systems were different, but the idea was the same. Some spiritual system was thought to be the absolute truth-- such that if everyone would accept it, all human problems would disappear.

These are just two examples. But there are others. In any case, in every instance the system that presented itself as the solution ended up being the cause of all human problems. It turned out people would have been better off with no system at all rather that the illusion of one that was thought to be the solution.
[No matter however. Once a person has accepted that system there is no going back. All the evidence in the world will not change his mind. Only later on generations will see the foolishness of the whole thing.]

[One thing I should mention: I am not against Numinous Value. Rather I think it is beyond Pure Reason. So it does not fit squarely into a definable box.  Rather it is like an electron that can be condensed into a particle state only by superposition of many k states [different value of k or momentum..So what I think is rather that one needs a balance of values.]
But while striving for a balance of values often one can fall into the Sitra Akra the Dark Side.. And most often happens by trying to do good. Like the Gra said in Proverbs that the Sitra Akra seduces to sin by means of suggesting to do some good deed. Which leaves one with the question then what can one use for a yardstick?
The thing to do is to identify the major practices to do daily and the major things to avoid. This might be a combination of common sense,  learning from history about the effects of any given system. Does it really lead to the great things it promises?]

My basic approximation of the right path is to look for examples of human excellence like I saw in my parents. Also to follow the path of the Gra as closely as possible--to learn Torah and to have trust in God and to be careful to take his signature on the letter of excommunication as being based on  objective truth. Not some kind of mistake based on faulty information. But rather based on fact.]

There is  a story of the Cock and the Horses. The cock was put to roost in the stable among the horses; and there being no racks or other conveniences for him, it seems, he was forced to roost upon the ground. The horses jostling about for room, and putting the cock in danger of his life, he gives them this grave advice, “Pray, Gentlefolks! let us stand still! for fear we should tread upon one another!”
  There are some people in the world, who, now they are unperched, and reduced to an equality with other people, and under strong and very just apprehensions of being further treated as they deserve, begin, with the cock, to preach up peace and union and the duty of moderation; forgetting that, when they had the power in their hands, those virtues were strangers in their gates!