A presentation of Tosphot Sanhedrin 61. Second to the top. This is only Tosphot. Here I ignore all questions on Tosphot and simply say over what tosphot is saying.

סנהדרין סא . תוספות ד''ה איכה יעבדו.

To make my presentation of תוספות in that little booklet on Shas clearer I want here just to say over simply what the question and answer of תוספות is without any relation to the Baal HaMeor and without any relation to any question I may have on תוספות.

שלב ראשון . We learn the three עבודות פנימיות from זביחה.

שלב שני. We ask why not learn from השתחוויה
That would forbid all רביע שני instead of just the three inner services.
 שלב שלישי. The גמרא asks if we would learn from השתחוויה then what would איכה יעבדו come to permit?
שלב רביעי
   תוספות asks why did the גמרא ask this only on השתחוויה? Why not ask also on זביחה?
שלב חמישי
  תוספות answers because השתחוויה would forbid all ארבעה רביעים and there would be nothing left for איכה יעבדו to do.

What I want to say today is this.  תוספות is mainly interested in רביע רביעי. This is the entire focus of  תוספות. It is absolutely essential to understand this fact in order to understand  תוספות at all.
Because רביע רביעי is the key to understanding  תוספות.
 תוספות is first bothered by the fact that the גמרא asks what would איכה יעבדו come to permit? Why not ask what does it come to forbid? But  תוספות is thinking, OK let take this simply  that the גמרא needs every verse to forbid something and permit something. Fine. No problem. We can accept that. And that makes sense here. We see that איכה יעבדו would forbid רביע רביעי which neither השתחוויה nor זביחה could do. But then we have our problem. Both השתחוויה and זביחה permit רביע שלישי, and זביחה permits even parts of רביע שני, so what is left for איכה יעבדו to permit?

Then  תוספות  says that this question is נבנית on the idea that איכה יעבדו has to permit something. But that assumption is wrong.  תוספות says that the גמרא really meant to ask if we learn from השתחוויה then what is left for  איכה יעבדו to come to permit or forbid? We did not ask this on זביחה because זביחה did not forbid רביע רביעי at all. So we had some use for איכה יעבדו. But we did ask on השתחוויה because if we were learning from השתחוויה then רביע רביעי  would have been forbidden and also רביע שלישי. Nothing would have been left to permit for איכה יעבדו


That is the end of my presentation today of  תוספות. And it is on this approach of  תוספות that I asked some question in  חידושי הש''ס that God granted to me to write.

The difference between תוספות and the בעל המאור is this. תוספות is thinking that both השתחוויה  and  זביחה permit רביע שלישי.
The בעל המאור says זביחה might have forbidden some parts of רביע שני if not for איכה יעבדו.
But for Tosphot there is no such thing.



סנהדרין סא. תוספות ד''ה איכה יעבוד

שלב ראשון. אנו לומדים שלוש עבודות פנימיות מזביחה.

שלב השנייה. אנו שואלים מדוע לא ללמוד מהשתחוויה
שיאסור כל רביע השני במקום רק שלוש עבודות פנימיות
 השלב שלישי. הגמרא שואלת אם היינו למודים מהשתחוויה אז מה היה איכה יעבוד באות להתיר?
שלב רביעי
   תוספות שואל מדוע גמרא שואל את זה רק על השתחוויה? למה לא לשאול גם על זביחה
שלב חמישי
  תשובת התוספות כי ההשתחוויה תאסור כל ארבעת רביעים ולא יהיה שום דבר נשאר לאיכה יעבדו לעשות. מה שאני רוצה לומר היום הוא זה. תוספות הוא בעיקר מתעניין ברביע רביעי. זה כל המוקד של תוספות. זה חיוני להבין את העובדה הזו כדי להבין תוספות בכלל.  רביע הרביעי הוא המפתח להבנת תוספות.  תוספות מוטרד ראשונה על ידי העובדה שהגמרא שואלת מה היה איכה יעבדו באה להתיר? למה לא לשאול מה הוא בא לאסור? אבל תוספות חושב, בסדר בואו נקבל את זה שהגמרא צריכה כל פסוק לאסור משהו ולהתיר דבר. בסדר. אין בעיה. אנחנו יכולים לקבל את זה. וזה הגיוני כאן. אנו רואים כי איכה יעבדו אוסרת רביע רביעי, מה שהשתחוויה ולא זביחה יכולים לעשות. אבל אז יש לנו הבעיה שלנו. שתיהם, השתחוויה וזביחה מתירים את רביע השלישי, וזביחה מתירה אפילו חלקים של רביע השני, אז מה נשארו  לאיכה יעבדו להתיר? אז תוספות אומרים ששאלה זו היא נבנתה על הרעיון שאיכה יעבדו חייב להתיר משהו. אבל הנחה הזו מוטעת. תוספות אומרים שגמרא באמת התכוונה לשאול אם אנחנו לומדים מההשתחוויה, אז מה שנשאר לאיכה יעבדו לבוא להתיר או לאסור? אנחנו לא שואלים את זה על זביחה, כי זביחה לא אסרה רביע רביעי בכלל. אז היה לנו איזה שימוש לאיכה יעבדו. אבל אנחנו  שואלים על ההשתחוויה כי אם היינו לומדים מהשתחוויה אז רביע רביעי היה אסור וגם הרביע שלישי. שום דבר לא היה נשאר לאיכה יעבדו לאסור ולא להתיר

The first is  a link to a small booklet on Shas. Mainly Sanhedrin and Bava Kama. Most of the work was done without  a learning partner so it  and I did not review it  very thoroughly. But it still seems to me to be pretty good.


חידושי הש''ס


This is a work in progress. But as it stands right now it is OK. The only thing is that between lines the formatting goes back to English and that needs to be corrected. But the basic work is still pretty OK as far as I can tell. [That is the ideas are sound but the writing of them is a little stilted.]

עיוני בבא מציעא chapter 8 and chapter 9   The formatting here I was able to change in Hebrew. So you don't get the same kinds of ripples that the booklet on Shas has.


This Bava Metzia booklet was done a lot with my learning partner. But there was a period when I was in Israel in which I did some work on my own. For example the ideas on Bava Metzia page 112 were done without my learning partner. In fact I think with him I did only up until page 104. Also the beginning of the booklet where I talk about Reb Chaim Soloveitchik's idea was done on my own.

None of this is anything to be proud of. Without a learning partner, I don't do very well in learning Torah. And that is a fact. But sometimes there is no choice but to do the best I can given my circumstances.

Songs of gratitude to God

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The Torah is Never The Principle

When asked to justify some viewpoint, people often invoke some Torah or halacha, only to get tangled up very quickly in contradictions.
Mostly it's laziness (or shallowness) and an attempt to seize the moral high ground. It's hard to defend specific issues when you're confronted by someone who simply rejects your basic premises. How do you find out what lines of argument they would find persuasive? (Hint: ask them. Say "what exactly would you accept as proof that I'm right?" Most of the time they don't have a clue, because most people only think about why they're right, not how they might be wrong.) It's far easier to enunciate some broad, high principle like Torah or Halacha, except that it's very easy to get tangled up in contradictions.


So What Is the Principle?
Who Reaps the Rewards?

Both Reform Jews and the insane religious world  argue that the reward system of society should favor those who do the most for the society. For Reform and Conservative, that's workers and intellectuals, without whom there would be no labor force to accomplish anything. Conservative Jews argue that any Third World country illustrates what labor alone can do without vision, capital and direction. Conservative Jews believe the rewards should favor those who provide the vision, direction, resources and structure to make labor productive. The insane religious world  argue that they do the most by invisible means.
Who bears the Costs?

Reform Jews tend to assume that social problems stem from inequality and lack of empowerment. Their suggested approach is to redress the inequality by redistributing wealth and limiting the powerful. In the face of some social problem, their approach is to restructure society to minimize the problem or restrict actions that contribute to the problem. Conservative Jews, on the other hand, tend to assume that social problems stem from sociopaths or stupid individuals. Their approach is to protect the law abiding population while restricting the sociopaths and allowing the stupid to endure the consequences of their actions. Both groups want to place the burden on the people they consider the root of the problem.
the insane religious world want the wealth to be redistributed to themselves and by that they think all problems will disappear. And to eliminate Reform Jews and make Baali Teshuva into the worker class.


Reform Jews want to place tax and regulatory burdens on the wealthy and privileged, conservatives want to place them on criminals and the nonproductive.


Nobody Really Wants Equality or a Classless Society

Since both liberals Jews and conservative Jews favor some groups over others, it's clear that neither group really believes everyone should be equal. Both have their own hierarchy they would like to see in power. The liberal theory is that groups that have been systematically deprived of a place in American society should be empowered, while the forces that have denied them a place should be held in check. Superficially, this attitude looks a lot like favoring equality. Looking below the surface, we find a widespread sentiment that the middle class morality is inferior.



The disdain for the "middle class" on the part of liberals suggests pretty strongly that they consider the middle class drones, whose only value is to generate tax revenue for social programs to benefit the "real people" of society, who don't allow their authenticity to be sullied by deferred gratification. After all, a self-styled "civilized person" says the middle class has no values because they are "99% driven by imitation" and their expressed values are "merely oft-repeated platitudes."


  Conservative Jews hold that "socially constructive" people should govern while the "nonproductive" should change their lifestyles and work their way up. In practice this means conservatives favor
The wealthy over the poor,The managerial class over the working class, Property owners over non-owners,  The law-abiding versus criminals, The self-supporting over those on assistance.
Nobody Really Wants a Meritocracy

More specifically, nobody wants a meritocracy based on actual accomplishment.  What both camps really want is a meritocracy of values, that is, an aristocracy in which position is dictated by attitude and conduct. Class is neither race, nor wealth, but behavior, though different socioeconomic classes have distinctive behaviors that identify their members.
 The problem with meritocracy is there has to be a definition of merit. And liberals and conservatives hold radically differing views on the subject.

my comment on Maggie's Farm  Maggie's Farm


...  The word "liberal" in the way of common usage in the USA ... is Socialism. That is the reason the word "extreme" is being attached to it.  It is not referring to the type of liberal philosophy of John Locke that the USA was founded upon.
And Socialism can in fact be accurately defined as extremist because its methods and goals are extremist. The reason for this is that the socialist recognized the smallest social unit as society, not the family nor the individual. With no individual rights and no freedom, Socialism can rightfully be called extreme in the most prejudiced type of way.

For Believers in "Rights" You believe that gay marriage, Internet access, food, and health care are rights. Okay, prove it.

My own idea about this issue is the need to learn about Natural Law starting with Saadia Gaon, the Rambam, Aquinas and John Locke. And then to develop an actual legal system based on natural law and natural rights. Not manufactured rights.

From Steven Dutch

For Believers in "Rights"

You believe that gay marriage, Internet access, food, and health care are rights.

Okay, prove it.

"Proof" does not mean using the Caps Lock key and lots of exclamation points, or calling names or using invective. Anyway, "Fascist" proves nothing except your emotional response to an issue.

No, proof means starting from basic axioms and reasoning, step by step, using logic that can be demonstrated to be valid. See an old-time geometry text for how it's done.

"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?" Well, that's the Declaration of Independence and those rights exist because they are "endowed by their Creator." That, by the way, is the only theory of rights in any of our founding documents. So those sentiments have been nullified by separation of Church and State. Talk about your law of unintended consequence

Here is the link: Steven Dutch Essay

My own idea about this issue is the need to learn about Natural Law starting with Saadia Gaon, the Rambam, Aquinas and John Locke. And then to develop an actual legal system based on natural law and natural rights. Not manufactured rights.

Now Rav Shach I think would not agree with this. I have heard that he held from Torah as the only valid form of government and law. But that was just yesterday that I heard this from my learning partner. But in Torah we do have the law "the law of the country is law" when it does not contradict the Torah. In any case, in a practical sense it is best not to give power to people that think they know Torah. Democracy might be the only safeguard to prevent people that think they know Torah from taking power.

Clearly the theory of the Rambam is that natural law is necessary in order to be able to keep and understand Torah law. [That is from the Guide.]

See this essay Essay by Kelly Ross

A link to music written for the glory of God

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