Reb Nachman's thought is often presented as Eastern Mysticism. This started with Reb Aryeh Kaplan and continues. I think the reason this is done is to try to get people whose thoughts are already influenced by Yoga and eastern religions.
However there are differences. One aspect of the difference is simply the existence of good and evil.
In Torah thought, there is evil, and one must actively avoid it.

M own feeling about all this is more or less based on Dr. Kelley Ross's essay "The Dark Side of the Tao" in which he posits a difference between religions that have a conflict between good and evil with good eventually winning--  as opposed to religions that say there is no such conflict.

My own background in the Mir Yeshiva in NY indicates to me a more Musar based approach. But my main thought here is that I must have  a blind spot in which flaws in my own thinking and world view are not apparent to me -in the same way I see people in Eastern religious though (including Reb Nachman's groups) also seem to have a blind spot.

The approach of Reb Israel Salanter [the founder of the Musar Movement] as far as I can see as to consider learning musar [books of medieval Ethics] to be the best way to come to fear of God and good character. But one thing stands out in this whole thing. It is that coming to fear of God is a goal. Perhaps the highest goal. That was at least how I understood it. To some degree you can see this in the verse: אם תבקשנה ככסף וכמטמונים תחפשנה אז תבין יראת ה' ודעת א' תמצא Proverbs 2. "If you seek it like money and like a treasure you search for it, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and the knowledge of God you will find." As a goal we do find the the Five books of Moses the idea of the fear of God as being the highest goal.

However to the Rambam the fear of God is reached not in the conventional way but rather by learning Physics and Metaphysics--along with Torah.

At the time I was at the Mir yeshiva I took the approach of Reb Israel Salanter quite literally. I have to say this seems to have in fact resulted in the exact kind of results that he predicted. So I can not really say if my later approach is all that much better.

What leads to right decisions? This seems to be a subject of debate. In the famous speech of Pericles it was mentioned that  discussion always precedes right action.
That is to say that there is an infinite difference between right action and wrong action. The repercussions go on and on forever. But to be able to perceive the difference before action is taken is very hard. each course of action can be argued for and against. The only way the right choice is made clear is by discussion.

If this was the only thing I had learned from Pericles' speech, that would already be enough. For I have heard of many other approaches the supposedly lead to right action and by experience -my own an others-I have found this idea of Pericles to be the best.

[This idea was also mentioned by Reb Nachman when he says that in the future people will get together and discuss their issues and by means of that, the Truth will be revealed. This is exactly what Pericles said. Discussion always precedes right action.

רמב''ם laws of הלכות ממרים פרק ב' הלכות א'-ג' . What you might note here is that for many decrees, the reason that was stated for it no longer exists.

הלכות ממרים פ''ב ה''א בית דין הגדול שדרשו באחת מן המידות כפי מה שנראה בעיניהם שהדין כך ודנו דין ועמד אחריהם ב''ד אחר לסתור אותו ה''ז סותר ודן כפי מה שנראה בעיניו שנאמר אל השופט אשר יהיה בימים ההם אינך חייב ללכת אלא אחר בית דין שבדורך.
הלכה ב' בית דין גזרו גזירה או תקנו תקנה והנהיגו מנהג ופשט הדבר בכל ישראל [ראב''ד-לא אפילו אליהו ובית דינו הואיל ופשט איסורן בכל ישראל כדאיתא בע''ז] ועמד אחריהם ב''ד אחר ובקש לבטל דברי הראשונים ולעקור אותה התקנה ואותה הגזרה ואותו המנהג אינו יכול עד שיהיה גדול מן הראשונים בחכמה ובמנין

הלכה ג' בד''א בדברים שלא אסרו אותן כדי לעשות סייג לתורה כשאר דיני התורה אבל דברים שראו בית דין לגזור ולאסור לעשות סייג אם פשט איסורן בכל ישראל אין בית דין גדול אחר יכול לעקרן ולהתירן אפילו היה גדול
מן הראשונים
ראב''ד עיטור שוקי ירושלים בפירות קשיא עליו שהראשונים תקנוהו וריו''ח בן זכאי בטלה אחר החרבן מפני שנתבטל הטעם לראשונים ולא היה גדול כראשונים


It occurred to me that the ראב''ד is really saying something significant in the רמב''ם laws of הלכות ממרים פרק ב' הלכות א'-ג' . The thing that I noticed is that the רמב''ם's order goes  from most lenient to most strict. And the ראב''ד has the same thing but with the order moved two steps up.
What that means  is this. To the רמב''ם the most lenient is things learned from the שלש עשרה מידות.  For that a later court can reverse the decision even if they are just a small court. The more strict level is  decrees of the sages. For that a later court can reverse the decree if it is greater in number an wisdom. The most strict level are גזירות תקנות ומנהגים made as a סייג to Torah that have been accepted. They can never be reversed. The ראב''ד's system starts with the last thing being the most lenient. He says that that ר. יוחנן בן זכאי reversed the decree to bring the ביכורים to ירושלים and not redeem them. The next level he explains in his comments on מסכת עדויות  where it says why are the words of the דעת היחיד recorded if the הלכה goes by the רוב? Because if a later court sees the words of the minority and agrees with them then it can change the decision if it is greater is number and wisdom.
The ראב''ד there says the later court would not reverse the decree unless the minority opinion was recorded. It comes out then that the later court can go against that majority because it is  a greater majority than the original court that ruled against the minority opinion.

Then the most strict is what is to the רמב''ם the middle level. That is decrees. There the ראב''ד says if it is נתפשט Then it can never be nullified.
Now you could say the ראב''ד is not disagreeing with the רמב''ם's division. But there is good reason to think that the ראב''ד is making the difference between 'הלכה ב and 'הלכה ג to be dependent on whether the decree has been accepted, not whether it is a fence to the Torah. You could argue this point  but for the time being let's just say that that is how the לחם משנה and רב שך both understand the ראב''ד.  That means that the ראב''ד is being strict in 'הלכה ב because as he says the decree was accepted in all Israel. That is why even a later court can not change the decree. And that means that in הלכה ג' where the ראב''ד is the most lenient that is because the decree was no longer accepted.  I mean to say that certainly the decree was once accepted. But when ר. יוחנן בן זכאי came around an the Temple had been destroyed it no longer was the custom to bring first fruits to Jerusalem. So he nullified the decree though he was smaller in wisdom and in number.
Not only that but it would seem like the רמב''ם would have to agree that once the decree was no longer accepted,  it was no longer in force.  For to the רמב''ם how was it possible for ה to nullify a decree when he was smaller in wisdom and number? It was not a case of the 13 principles which is the only case the רמב''ם would have allowed such a thing.


That means that the ראב''ד and perhaps the רמב''ם also are thinking that decrees have force only in so far as they are accepted throughout all Israel. Once they are ignored they no longer have validity because the whole reason for their existence is gone.

So what comes out from all this is significant. That is that the ראב''ד is thinking slightly different from תוספות. What תוספות holds is numerous places is that if the reason for  a decree is nullified the decree itself is nullified. This is like רבה in ביצה page ה' ע''א. What you see from the ראב''ד is that what is determinant is if the decree is presently accepted throughout  all Israel. Not if it once was accepted.  ר. יוחנן בן זכאי certainly did not reverse a decree that had never been accepted.  Or which was based on the 13 principles. Rather it was a decree that had once been accepted  and then was ignored Thus ר. יוחנן בן זכאי could nullify it even though he was smaller in number and wisdom.



ברמב"ם  הלכות ממרים פרק ב 'הלכות א' - ג'. הסדר של הרמב"ם הולך מן הקל ביותר לחמור ביותר. וגם לראב''ד יש את אותו הדבר אבל עם סדר שני צעדים למעלה. מה זה אומר בעברית פשוטה זה. הקל ביותר לרמב''ם הוא דברים הנלמדים מן שלש עשרה מידות. כי בית משפט מאוחר יותר יכול להפוך את ההחלטה גם אם הם רק בית משפט קטן. הרמה החמורה יותר היא גזירות החכמים. כי בית משפט מאוחר יותר יכול להפוך את הצו אם הוא גדול במספר חוכמה. הרמה החמורה ביותר היא גזירות ותקנות  שנעשו סייג לתורה שהתקבלו. לעולם לא ניתן לבטלן. המערכת של ראב''ד מתחילה כשהדבר האחרון הוא הקל ביותר. הוא אומר כי ר' יוחנן בן זכאי ביטל את התקנה להביא את הביכורים לירושלים ולא לגאול אותם. הרמה הבאה הוא מסביר בהערותיו על מסכת עדויות. המשנה שם אומרת מדוע דבריו של היחיד נרשמים אם הלכה הולך על לפי הרוב? הסיבה היא שאם בית משפט מאוחר יותר יראה את דברי המיעוט ומסכים איתם, אז הוא יכול לשנות את ההחלטה אם הוא גדול יותר הוא במספר וחוכמה. הראב"ד אומר שבית המשפט המאוחר לא יבטל דברי הראשונים, אלא אם כן נרשמים חוות דעת המיעוט. אז יוצא כי בית המשפט המאוחר יכול ללכת נגד הרוב הזה, כי הוא רוב גדול יותר מהבית המשפט המקורי שפסק נגד דעת המיעוט. זה בדבר שנלמד ע''י הי''ג מידות. אז החמור ביותר לראב''ד הוא מה שהוא לרמב''ם את הרמת הביניים. זה גזירות. שם אומר הראב''ד אם התקנה נתפשטה, אז לעולם לא תבוטל.  יש סיבה טובה לומר שהראב''ד עושה את ההבדל בין הלכה ב' והלכה ג' להיות תלוי אם הגזירה התקבלה, לא אם זה גדר (סייג) לתורה. אתה יכול להתווכח על הנקודה הזאת, אבל בינתיים נניח שזה נכון שכך רב שך והלחם משנה מבינים את הראב''ד. זה אומר כי ראב''ד הוא מחמיר בהלכה ב' כי כפי מה שהוא אומר הגזירה התקבלה בכל ישראל. לכן אפילו בית משפט מאוחר יותר לא יכול לשנות את הגזירה. ופירוש הדבר כי הלכה ג'  שלראב''ד היא הקלה ביותר היא תקנה שכבר לא מקובלת. אני מתכוון לומר כי בהחלט התקנה היתה פעם מקובלת. אך כאשר ר. יוחנן בן זכאי בא אחר שבית המקדש נהרס זה כבר לא היה מנהג להביא את הפירות הראשונים לירושלים. אז הוא ביטלה למרות שהוא היה קטן יותר בחוכמה ומספר. לא רק זה, אלא שנראה  שהרמב"ם יצטרך להסכים כי לאחר שהגזירה לא מתקבלת עוד, היא כבר לא תהיה בתוקף. עבור לרמב"ם כיצד היה ר' יוחנן בן זכאי יכול לבטל תקנה כאשר היה קטן יותר מן הראשונים בחוכמה ומספר? זה לא היה מקרה של שלש עשרה עקרונות וזה המקרה היחיד שהרמב"ם היה מאפשר דבר כזה. משמעות הדבר היא שגם הראב''ד ואולי הרמב"ם מחזיקים שגם לתקנות יש כוח רק במידה שהן מקובלות על כל ישראל. ברגע שישראל התעלמו מהן אין להן עוד תוקף כי כל הסיבה לקיומן נעלמה. הראב''ד מחזיק קצת שונה מתוספות. מה שתוספות  מחזיק במקומות רבים הוא שאם את הסיבה לתקנה בוטלת אז התקנה עצמה היא בטלה. זה כמו רבה בביצה דף ה" ע''א. מה שאתה רואה מהראב''ד הוא שמה שקובע הוא אם הגזירה מקובלת כיום על כל ישראל. לא אם היא היתה מקובלת פעם. ר יוחנן בן זכאי בהחלט לא ביטל תקנה שלא היתה אף פעם מקובלת. או שהיה מבוסס על שלש עשרה העקרונות.  זאת היתה זה תקנה שהיתה פעם מקובלת ולאחר מכן התעלמה. כך שר. יוחנן בן זכאי היה יכול לבטלה  למרות שהוא היה קטן יותר במספר חוכמה

What you might note here is that for many decrees, the reason that was stated for it no longer exists.
Plus many decrees are no longer accepted by most people. The list includes almost everything that is a decree. Add to that that there is an argument [in the commentary on Pirkei Avot by an Amora printed in every Vilna Shas] whether there is any authority in the first place to make a decree it comes out that most decrees there is no reason to keep. Rather one simply learn and keep Torah.

Some decrees in fact the Gemara does not say the reason for but Rishonim do like Mukze. In any case Mukze in itself has reasons to be lenient about since the law is like R. Shimon that the only kind of muktze is what is specifically put away not to use like drying figs on a roof.

It occurred to me that the Raavad is really saying something significant in the Rambam laws of Rebellious Judges. The thing that I noticed is that the Rambam's order goes like ABC from most lenient to most strict. And the Ravaad has the same thing but with the order moved two steps up so it goes like BCA.
What that means in plain English is this. To the Rambam the most lenient is things learned from the 13 principles of interpretation. [For that a later court can reverse the decision even if they are just a small court.] The more strict level is  decrees of the sages. For that a later court can reverse the decree if it is greater in number an wisdom. The most strict level is decrees made as a fence to Torah. That can never be reversed. That is A-B-C. The Raavad's system starts with the last thing being the most lenient. He says that that R.Yochanan Ben Zachai reversed the decree to bring the fruit fruits to Jerusalem and not redeem them. The next level he explains in his comments on tracate Eduyot  where there is one of the 13 principles of interpretation that a later court can reverse if it is greater in wisdom and number. The Raavad there says the later court would not reverse the decree unless the minority opinion was recorded. It comes out then that the later court can go against that majority because it is  a greater majority than the original court that ruled against the minority opinion.
Then the most strict is what is to the Rambam the middle level. That is decrees. There the Raavad says if it is נתפשט Then it can never be nullified.
Now you could say the Raavad is not disagreeing with the Rambam's division. But there is good reason to think that the Raavad is making the difference between halacha 2 and halacha 3 to be dependent on whether the decree has been accepted, not whether it is a fence to the Torah. You could argue this point  but for the time being let's just say that that is how the Lechem Mishna and Rav Shach both understand the Raavad.  That means that the Raavad is being strict in halacha 2 because as he says the decree was accepted in all Israel. That is why even a later court can not change the decree. And that means that in halacha 3 where the Raavad is the most lenient that is because the decree was no longer accepted.  I mean to say that certainly the decree was once accepted. But when R. Yochana came around an the Temple had been destroyed it no longer was the custom to bring first fruits to Jerusalem. So he nullified the decree though he was smaller in wisdom and in number.
Not only that but it would seem like the Rambam would have to agree that once the decree was no longer accepted,  it was no longer in force.  For to the Rambam how was it possible for R Yochanan to nullify a decree when he was smaller? It was not a case of the 13 principles which is the only case the Rambam would have allowed such a thing.


That means that the Raavad and perhaps the Rambam also are thinking that decrees have force only in so far as they are accepted throughout all Israel. Once they are ignored they no longer have validity because the whole reason for their existence is gone.

So what comes out from all this is significant. That is that the Raavad is thinking slightly different from Tosphot. What Tosphot hold is numerous places is that if the reason for  a decree is nullified the decree itself is nullified. [This is like Raba in Beitza page 5a] What you see from the Raavad is that what is determinant if if the decree is presently accepted throughout  all Israel. Not if it once was accepted.  R. Yochanan certainly did not reverse a decree that had never been accepted.  Or which was based on teh 13 principles. Rather it was a decree that had once been accepted  and then was ignored Thus R Yochanan could nullify it even though he was smaller in number and wisdom

To me this makes sense. I thought at first that if people would be more strict about Torah that that would make things better. But eventually I began to notice there was an inverse relation between strictness and menchlichkeit.

Reb Nachman is not the same as Breslov.

On the subject of Reb Nachman. The positive aspects were pointed out to me. That is that the real thing- authentic Litvak Torah- tends to be kind of flat. Especially for people looking for the meaning of life it does not tend to address issues that are foremost in people's-minds. Reb Nachman was a true tzadik and his approach is a very good synthesis between straight Torah {Gemara Rashi Tosphot} and the Arizal [Isaac Luria].
The drawback is the tendency to get involved in Breslov which is filled with insane people.
For me personally I was not lacking anything as a straight Litvak. Torah and marriage, Israel, devekut,... Getting involved in Breslov changed all that. It is like a door is opened to all kinds of other cults and bad stuff.
The other thing is there is even in the thought of Reb Nachman itself a tendency is to reject the balanced approach of the Rishonim (Rambam, Obligations of the Heart, Musar) of  synthesis between Reason and Revelation.  This is possible to find find in the words of Reb Nachman himself through quilt quotations.
This is not to minimize the importance of Reb Nachman's thought, but it does mean that it is highly advisable to avoid Breslov and all the cults that were put into excommunication by the Gra. Reb Nachman himself was not included in the excommunication, but getting involved with his books tends to open the door to lots of other pretty bad stuff.

Reb Nachman's system is is a synthesis of straight Litvak Torah, Gemara Rashi Tosphot, with the Ari.
 The Rambam's is a synthesis of Torah with Aristotle. The differences are significant and that leaves me wondering . 

music for the glory of God

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