16.7.17
natural law and Divine Law to the Rambam.
I am beginning to wonder if there is any real difference between natural law and Divine Law to the Rambam. The reasons for the laws we know were implicitly understood by the Chazal (Sages) except for the Red Heifer. But only later the Rambam spelled out the reasons.
But there does not seem to be any definite account of what Avraham Avinu's natural law approach might have been in the Guide. (That is Abraham the Patriarch). It is almost as if the Rambam is saying in order to get to natural law you have to keep the Torah. He certainly does not think of the legal structures of Ancient Greece as fulfilling the requirement of natural Law.
He puts the nomoi (laws) of the Greeks into the same area of the ravings of the Sabians in the Guide.
In the Guide, the Rambam makes clear most of the laws of the Torah are to bring to things that he considered natural law.
But there does not seem to be any definite account of what Avraham Avinu's natural law approach might have been in the Guide. (That is Abraham the Patriarch). It is almost as if the Rambam is saying in order to get to natural law you have to keep the Torah. He certainly does not think of the legal structures of Ancient Greece as fulfilling the requirement of natural Law.
He puts the nomoi (laws) of the Greeks into the same area of the ravings of the Sabians in the Guide.
In the Guide, the Rambam makes clear most of the laws of the Torah are to bring to things that he considered natural law.
Socialist programs are not part of the constitution and not the Torah
Socialist programs are not part of the constitution and not the Torah. Dr Epstein (NYU) pointed out the general welfare clause is not a permission to benefit one part of the population at the expense of the other parts. It is almost always taken out of context.
I have long thought the voting for socialist programs which benefit the religious is against the Torah. Pretty soon after I got to Israel and realized the basic problems with the system- Torah for money, and the religious voting for themselves other people's money, I dropped out of the system. I learned on my own at home or in the fields around Safed. That was not much learning, but at least it was for the sake of Torah, and not for money.
I have tried to keep down my critique on this because on rare occasions some good comes from it. But in general I think the Rambam was right that there should not be monetary payment for learning or teaching Torah. When money gets involved with it, it ruins the holiness.
However there are great yeshivas where you can feel just when you walk in, that the Torah there is learned for its own sake and for those kinds of places I think it is a great thing to support them.
I have long thought the voting for socialist programs which benefit the religious is against the Torah. Pretty soon after I got to Israel and realized the basic problems with the system- Torah for money, and the religious voting for themselves other people's money, I dropped out of the system. I learned on my own at home or in the fields around Safed. That was not much learning, but at least it was for the sake of Torah, and not for money.
I have tried to keep down my critique on this because on rare occasions some good comes from it. But in general I think the Rambam was right that there should not be monetary payment for learning or teaching Torah. When money gets involved with it, it ruins the holiness.
However there are great yeshivas where you can feel just when you walk in, that the Torah there is learned for its own sake and for those kinds of places I think it is a great thing to support them.
Learning Torah for its own sake [not for money] constantly and with energy
Learning Torah for its own sake [not for money] constantly and with energy (with תמידות and מרץ) is an issue that comes up in Litvak yeshivas. Some people have found that making a yeshiva is a good way to make money, so they pretend that this goal of learning constantly and with energy is, in fact, their goal. Others are straightforward enemies of this goal. They hate the idea of people learning Torah for its own sake. But if it is for money [like they do] -then it is OK.
This is not just an issue of a some intellectual puzzle, but for me was and still is a very personal issue.
The reason kollels were created [the original idea started with Reb Israel Salanter] was to remove one of the biggest obstacles of learning Torah--marriage.
That to some degree might seem to help, but to me it looks like it just contributes to the problems of people using Torah to make money.
The best idea to marry a "Bat Talmid Chacham" (the daughter of a authentic Torah scholar) [not the phony types].
The general answer to this problem is not known to me, except that people ought to be taught the importance of learning Torah for its own sake, and to do so on one's own, and to support the Litvak yeshivas which in fact do this.
I had a long history in this subject. To go into it in detail seems too much for me right now. but in short the issue can be divided into several time periods.
Time Period I: Yeshiva. That is where I first encountered the concept. Later reading the Nefesh Hachaim made it more clear. [The issue was not really dealt with in more general books of Musar]
Time Period II. Getting married. The girl I married was not exactly a Bat Talmid Chacham (the daughter of a authentic Torah scholar), but she certainly appreciated what I was doing in yeshiva.[Her father was a working guy.] Something about what I was doing seemed to affect her in some kind of deep way--enough to get her to run to NY and chase me for years, in spite of my constant refusals [and rude refusals.]. I guess you would have to say that something of the spirit of Authentic Torah must have touched her soul.
Time period III. Getting involved in Breslov. In some ways great. But as far as learning Torah goes, it caused me to lose interest. It is given lip service, but the actual essence is gone. Still that was a great period in many ways. It gave me interest in getting to Israel, and for the seven years I was there there was a kind of opening into a higher consciousness.
Time Period IV. I found out how nasty the religious world really is. A tremendous effort was spent after I returned to California to separate me from my wife and children all because I was learning Torah. That is learning the hard way to stay away from the religious world and the demonic "Torah teachers" that are obviously into Torah because that is where the money and power is.
Time Period V: trying to figure it all out. One good approach I discovered is Schopenhauer. He does deal with this question in a straightforward way. Human good is not something that interests the "Will."
That is however not very satisfying in my own case since it seems clear that in any case for the seven years in Safed I was not doing much learning Torah anyway. So it is kind of expected that when one has gone away from learning, and then tries to get back to it, that obstacles will be encountered.
In any case, I am no poster child for this particular position. If I got back into learning at all, it is a due to David Bronson with whom I learned Gemara with after all the above mentioned events.
This is not just an issue of a some intellectual puzzle, but for me was and still is a very personal issue.
The reason kollels were created [the original idea started with Reb Israel Salanter] was to remove one of the biggest obstacles of learning Torah--marriage.
That to some degree might seem to help, but to me it looks like it just contributes to the problems of people using Torah to make money.
The best idea to marry a "Bat Talmid Chacham" (the daughter of a authentic Torah scholar) [not the phony types].
The general answer to this problem is not known to me, except that people ought to be taught the importance of learning Torah for its own sake, and to do so on one's own, and to support the Litvak yeshivas which in fact do this.
I had a long history in this subject. To go into it in detail seems too much for me right now. but in short the issue can be divided into several time periods.
Time Period I: Yeshiva. That is where I first encountered the concept. Later reading the Nefesh Hachaim made it more clear. [The issue was not really dealt with in more general books of Musar]
Time Period II. Getting married. The girl I married was not exactly a Bat Talmid Chacham (the daughter of a authentic Torah scholar), but she certainly appreciated what I was doing in yeshiva.[Her father was a working guy.] Something about what I was doing seemed to affect her in some kind of deep way--enough to get her to run to NY and chase me for years, in spite of my constant refusals [and rude refusals.]. I guess you would have to say that something of the spirit of Authentic Torah must have touched her soul.
Time period III. Getting involved in Breslov. In some ways great. But as far as learning Torah goes, it caused me to lose interest. It is given lip service, but the actual essence is gone. Still that was a great period in many ways. It gave me interest in getting to Israel, and for the seven years I was there there was a kind of opening into a higher consciousness.
Time Period IV. I found out how nasty the religious world really is. A tremendous effort was spent after I returned to California to separate me from my wife and children all because I was learning Torah. That is learning the hard way to stay away from the religious world and the demonic "Torah teachers" that are obviously into Torah because that is where the money and power is.
Time Period V: trying to figure it all out. One good approach I discovered is Schopenhauer. He does deal with this question in a straightforward way. Human good is not something that interests the "Will."
That is however not very satisfying in my own case since it seems clear that in any case for the seven years in Safed I was not doing much learning Torah anyway. So it is kind of expected that when one has gone away from learning, and then tries to get back to it, that obstacles will be encountered.
In any case, I am no poster child for this particular position. If I got back into learning at all, it is a due to David Bronson with whom I learned Gemara with after all the above mentioned events.
15.7.17
The thing is the Greek States choose their form of government. And that is what made them free as opposed to Persian rule. But I see that any form of government can be corrupted. That is a good point. The Democrats definitely have shown that point all too well.
The Rambam does not put any form of government in the category of natural law. I assume he had read Aristotle's/ book on the constitutions of the Greek states.
He puts the nomoi of the Greeks and ravings of the Sabians all into one category. Clearly to him only the Torah itself can guarantee natural law.
This leaves one wondering nowadays when one finds religious neighbors to be particularly obnoxious, what could the Rambam have answered? That they are not keeping Torah well enough? Then what kind of state did he envision? One in which everyone is a tzadik?It is well known living under the rule of religious authorities is a Kafkaian nightmare.
The Rambam does not put any form of government in the category of natural law. I assume he had read Aristotle's/ book on the constitutions of the Greek states.
He puts the nomoi of the Greeks and ravings of the Sabians all into one category. Clearly to him only the Torah itself can guarantee natural law.
This leaves one wondering nowadays when one finds religious neighbors to be particularly obnoxious, what could the Rambam have answered? That they are not keeping Torah well enough? Then what kind of state did he envision? One in which everyone is a tzadik?It is well known living under the rule of religious authorities is a Kafkaian nightmare.
laws of neighborhoods and my own problems with neighbors.
Little is known about the laws of neighborhoods and neighbors outside the Litvak yeshiva world where chapter two of Bava Batra is learned once every seven years. The religious world focuses on religious rituals, and thus the aspects of Torah which deal with relationships between neighbors is ignored. This is just one example of what I have been saying for along time. The Jewish religious world has nothing to do with Torah.
In any case, there are three basic opinions concerning things that cause damage to a neighbor's. property. The Ri MiGash that to put things that would cause damage to a neighbor's wall if there was a wall are permitted to put there as long as there is no wall. If the neighbor puts up a wall then the things that cause damage must be removed. Another opinion is if the things were put there before the wall is built, they do not need to be removed. Another opinion is they can not be put there ever, because the neighbor might build a wall.
There seems to be a contradiction is the Beit Yoseph's Shulchan Aruch concerning this where he goes by the Ri MiGash.[I noted that Rav Shach goes into this in some detail.]
I noticed years ago that Reb Ahron Kotler had a big piece on this in his collected writings on Shas but never got a chance to learn it. My own study in Bava Batra was very limited to "Girsa" saying the words and going on along with the English Soncino. I never got much of a chance to do it in depth. [This was in spite of the fact that they had begun this in the Mir in NY when I was there, but by that time I was off into Seder Moad and also getting ready to come to Israel. Rav Ernster was given a Kirya in Safed by the Israel Government on condition that he fill it. Thus I was invited to Israel at that time. [I believe it was a Labor government at the time, since I am pretty sure the Likud never got into power until later.]
Hindsight suggests to me that being in Rav Ernter's kollel would not have been a bad option but at the time I though the taking tests to prove that you did the learning was along the lines of using Torah to make money. I still wonder about that. Some time later I saw that Shimon Buso was talking part in a program to learn and take tests though clearly his intention was to have an extra kind of motivation for the learning. If I had been smart I think I would have gone to Rav Fievelson's kollel in the old city of Safed--a litvak kollel. But in any case I was Moharosh's orbit {Rav Shick} at the time. Still I was not into learning since after getting involved in Breslov my basic worldview had changed.
The Kirya of Rav Ernster was great for most of the time I was there. It got after some time people that were less than desirable neighbors. towards the end people took telling their children to stone my kids to indicate to me that I was not wanted there.
In any case, there are three basic opinions concerning things that cause damage to a neighbor's. property. The Ri MiGash that to put things that would cause damage to a neighbor's wall if there was a wall are permitted to put there as long as there is no wall. If the neighbor puts up a wall then the things that cause damage must be removed. Another opinion is if the things were put there before the wall is built, they do not need to be removed. Another opinion is they can not be put there ever, because the neighbor might build a wall.
There seems to be a contradiction is the Beit Yoseph's Shulchan Aruch concerning this where he goes by the Ri MiGash.[I noted that Rav Shach goes into this in some detail.]
I noticed years ago that Reb Ahron Kotler had a big piece on this in his collected writings on Shas but never got a chance to learn it. My own study in Bava Batra was very limited to "Girsa" saying the words and going on along with the English Soncino. I never got much of a chance to do it in depth. [This was in spite of the fact that they had begun this in the Mir in NY when I was there, but by that time I was off into Seder Moad and also getting ready to come to Israel. Rav Ernster was given a Kirya in Safed by the Israel Government on condition that he fill it. Thus I was invited to Israel at that time. [I believe it was a Labor government at the time, since I am pretty sure the Likud never got into power until later.]
Hindsight suggests to me that being in Rav Ernter's kollel would not have been a bad option but at the time I though the taking tests to prove that you did the learning was along the lines of using Torah to make money. I still wonder about that. Some time later I saw that Shimon Buso was talking part in a program to learn and take tests though clearly his intention was to have an extra kind of motivation for the learning. If I had been smart I think I would have gone to Rav Fievelson's kollel in the old city of Safed--a litvak kollel. But in any case I was Moharosh's orbit {Rav Shick} at the time. Still I was not into learning since after getting involved in Breslov my basic worldview had changed.
The Kirya of Rav Ernster was great for most of the time I was there. It got after some time people that were less than desirable neighbors. towards the end people took telling their children to stone my kids to indicate to me that I was not wanted there.
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